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  #1  
Old 12-14-2003, 10:23 AM
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Snap-On MT2500

I'm getting ready to buy an advanced scanner for my 1996 S500 (W140)... one that I'm considering is the Snap-On MT2500. I already have a good OBDII scanner that can read a lot of "live" data related to mass air flow, temps, EGO plots, etc but want to go to the next level of detail.
Have searched the web and been to the Snap-On site... but, still not clear to me what this scanner's abilities are. Snap-On lists the various engine management schemes used by Mercedes that this scanner can work with, but details are lacking.
I'm hoping someone has this tool and its associated cartridge and can give some specifics.
For example, is the MT2500 able to see/read other systems in the car, like the ABS or SRS? How about ASR?
One downside to this tool is that it seems the only way to update the device is to buy new cartridges... a costly way to upgrade compared to software.
Upside seems to be that these things are reportedly well made and very reliable.
Anyone?
Thanks, KenP
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  #2  
Old 12-14-2003, 11:20 AM
it leaks, its german
 
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The 2500 is not a bad tool however, its lacking a lot. Personally I'd check with Brian at behind the star and see if he still has the Baum for sale. A little bit more detail and a little cheaper than the 2500. (at least in the case of the used one)



Joe
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  #3  
Old 12-14-2003, 11:26 AM
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Ken, I have it. It only can access engine and transmission. I used it on 92 600SEL and here is a live data you can see on LH:
O2 Sensor voltage, mV
S/A CTP (Idle), kg/h
S/A Lower Partial load
S/A Upper Partial Load
Lambda, %
Battery, V
RPM
Basic Injection Duration, mS
Injection duration correction
Hot Wire air mass, kg/h
Hot Wire Voltage
Pressure, mbar
Coolant Temp 1 *C
Coolant Temp 2
After start enrichment
Deceleration Shut off
Air Pump
Camshaft timing
Intake Air temperature
CTP Idle recognition
Throttle angle
WOT recognition
EGR
Fuel Pump
Canister Purge Duty cycle, %
Speed
Cylinder Shut-Off 1 (7)
Cylinder Shut-Off 2 (8)
Cylinder Shut-Off 3 (9)
Cylinder Shut-Off 4 (10)
Cylinder Shut-Off 5 (11)
Cylinder Shut-Off 6 (12)
LN-SFI Ref Resistor
Circuit 50
Safety Fuel Shut-Off
CAN Reception from DI 1(2)
CAN Reception from EA/CC/ISC
CAN Reception from LH 2(1)
CAN Transmission from LH 1(2)

You can reset self adaptations. It can also do some activations - EGR, camshaft, shut off individual injectors, purge valve.
It also can read EZL, but I did not have a chance to use it with EZL yet.
The one I got is MTG2500 - has graphing capabilities. Got it on Ebay, and a MB cartrige from SnapOn.
I have mine only for week or so, and did not use it on my other cars yet.
Let me know if you need more details.
Mike
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  #4  
Old 12-14-2003, 12:23 PM
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Thanks!

Gents, thanks much for your replies... much appreciated.

Joe, can you elaborate a bit on the "Baum" scanner... not familiar with it. What can it do that the MT2500 can not? Does anyone make a tool that can get into the car's sub-systems other than the Mercedes HHT and doesn't cost half the U.S. GNP? :-)

Mike, you did exactly what I'm thinking... looks like the basic box is about $450 or so on eBay and the cartridge is another 550 ... so, its about $1,000 to do this... which is why I wanted to check before I leap! If you get a chance to hook it up to a '96-'99 with digital engine controls (ME1.0), I'd like to know what the differences are... or, if that information is in the manual, please let me know...
Did you need anything in addition to the basic box and the cartridge kit?
What are your overall impressions so far? Looks like lots of shops are dumping these because the cartridges are getting out of date and the cost of replacement may be too high... Snap-On must have sold a bunch of them.

Anyone else?

Thanks, KenP
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  #5  
Old 12-14-2003, 03:17 PM
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Ken, here are the reading from my 99 ML430. Only ME and Transmission available. (this is ME 2.0 system)

OS2 Voltage before TWC Left 84 - 714
OS2 Voltage before TWC Right 90 - 734
Lambda Control before TWC Right -1 -- +1
Lambda Control before TWC Left -1 -- +1
OS2 Heater before TWC Right On
OS2 Heater before TWC Right Voltage 0.13
OS2 Heater before TWC Left On
OS2 Heater before TWC Left Voltage 0.25
OS2 Voltage after TWC Left 499
OS2 Voltage after TWC Right 489
Lambda after TWC Left (ms) 20
Lambda after TWC Right (ms) 60
Ignition duration Left (ms) 2.97
Ignition duration Right (ms) 3.03
Air Mass (kg/h) 16
HFM voltage 1.38
Manifold absolute pressure MAP mbar 323
Manifold absolute pressure MAP voltage 1.31
S/A CTP (Idle) Left (ms) -0.19
S/A CTP (Idle) Right (ms) -0.14
S/A partial load Left 1.04
S/A partial load Right 1.03
S/A delay time Left (ms) 0
S/A delay time Right (ms) 0
Load correction Factor 0.89
After start enrichment off
Engine speed RPM 650
Nominal engine speed 649
Engine start temperature C 81
Engine Coolant temp 85
Engine Coolant temp Voltage 0.78
Engine Oil temp 82
Engine Oil Level OK
Intake Air temp 29
Intake Air voltage 2.23
A/C compressor off
Battery voltage 13.6
Throttle valve angle 2.8
Learn Value Throttle Valve Stop (%) 11.56
CTP recognition on
WOT recognition off
CTP adjustment value (deg) 2.49
CTP Long term adaptation value (deg) 2.4
Throttle valve stop learned yes
Actual Signal 1 (V) 4.33
Actual Signal 2 (V) 0.64
Pedal Value sensor 1 0.30
Pedal Value sensor 2 0.15
Air Pump off
Camshaft Hall Effect Sensor 55 - AA
Fuel Tank Level OK
Purging off
Purg Valve duty cycle (%) 0
Tank Pressure difference (mbar) 0
Tank Pressure difference (volt) 2.99
Misfire Cylinder 1 (1/SxS) 0.00
Misfire Cylinder 2 (1/SxS) 0
Misfire Cylinder 3 (1/SxS) 0
Misfire Cylinder 4 (1/SxS) 0
Misfire Cylinder 5 (1/SxS) 0
Misfire Cylinder 6 (1/SxS) 0
Misfire Cylinder 7 (1/SxS) 0
Misfire Cylinder 8 (1/SxS) 0
Misfire fault counter Cyl 1 0
Misfire fault counter Cyl 2 0
Misfire fault counter Cyl 3 0
Misfire fault counter Cyl 4 0
Misfire fault counter Cyl 5 0
Misfire fault counter Cyl 6 0
Misfire fault counter Cyl 7 0
Misfire fault counter Cyl 8 0
Misfire recognition shut-off threshold (1/SxS) 1.92
Knock control approval off
Knock Ignition angle Cyl 1 0
Knock Ignition angle Cyl 2 0
Knock Ignition angle Cyl 3 0
Knock Ignition angle Cyl 4 0
Knock Ignition angle Cyl 5 0
Knock Ignition angle Cyl 6 0
Knock Ignition angle Cyl 7 0
Knock Ignition angle Cyl 8 0
Knock Sensor Left Voltage 0
Knock Sensor Right Voltage 0
Ignition angle 12
Vehicle speed front axle (mph) 0
Vehicle speed rear axle (mph) 0
Cruise Control shut-off function yes
Cruise Control shut-off safety yes
Cruise control off
Stop lamp switch off
DAS and ECU compatible yes
ECU identified yes
ECM locked yes
Number of starts with non-locked ECM 0
Start Autorization yes
Transmission overload protection off
Transmission shift delay off
Adapted ranges L1 off
Adapted ranges L2 off
Adapted ranges L3 off
Safety contact off
Selector lever position P,N
Hold gear off
Decel shut off off
Safety fuel shut-off off
Torque (NM) 66
Engine load (%) 17
Exhaust temperature TWC model 308
TWC heating at idle off

It can do the following tests:
Air pump, Injectors 1 -- 8, Throttle valve, Fuel Pump, Purging, Charcoal Canister shut-off valve, EGR, Fuel trim, Intake Manifold switch-over valve.

Transmission has a lot too, but I don't have time to check it now, just look through it. You can do some activation as well.
Cartrige from SnapOn comes with all you need - 38 pin cable, OBD2 cable and 3 keys. Also cable for older MB with banana plug. It comes with the manual, but it is a general description of the parameters, so it is hard to tell what's available for your car.
If you decided to get it, order optional flat ribbon 25 pin cable p/n MT2500302 so you can close the hood and door and drive with it pluged. It comes with reqular cable and it is too big to close the door on it.
Reg. Mike
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  #6  
Old 12-14-2003, 03:36 PM
it leaks, its german
 
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Re: Thanks!

Quote:
Originally posted by KenP
Gents, thanks much for your replies... much appreciated.

Joe, can you elaborate a bit on the "Baum" scanner... not familiar with it. What can it do that the MT2500 can not? Does anyone make a tool that can get into the car's sub-systems other than the Mercedes HHT and doesn't cost half the U.S. GNP? :-)


Well, the Baum tool will get into some of the subsystems including SRS. Overall, its not a bad alternative to the HHT, although not as all encompassing as the HHT.



Joe
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  #7  
Old 12-14-2003, 03:47 PM
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Mike,
Thanks! Looks like the ME systems give you a lot more data... which, I guess, isn't that surprising.
After reading Joe's comments, I went on a web search for the Baum iScan scanner... it does lots of stuff including most of the subsystems like Climate Control, ABS, ASR, etc... drawback is that its pretty expensive... about $2K for the scanner and about 1200 for the software/module/cables that are specific to Mercedes. Not many of them on eBay (could only find 1 present, no past auctions) so they probably aren't inexpensive there either. Will have to watch to see what they go for. As you know, there are some good deals for MT2500's...
Cool tools either way... :-)
Guess I'm way too old... I remember when all you needed was a file, a voltmeter, a box wrench, and a matchbook cover (to set the points!) to keep a car going.... but, then, you could buy a headlight for $1.50.... and there were only two kinds... both round... :-) Now I REALLY feel old...
KenP
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  #8  
Old 12-14-2003, 04:30 PM
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Another alternative is AST Retriever.
http://asttool.com/html/tables/mercedes.html
and
http://www.distools.com/retriever_mb.htm
Looks like the price would be $2000+
Mike
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  #9  
Old 12-14-2003, 10:56 PM
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There are a number of new players in the MB scanner field. All are rather expensive for DIY use.

I have said quite a number of times here that the MT2500 is a real deal for MB when the base unit is bought used. There are plenty available on ebay and I have even seen the MB module for sale used there.

Every MB system has more or less of these dignostic features: system identification (hardware and software versions etc), fault codes, actual values, activations, and some version of adaptation/variant coding/programming. On late models there are tens of controllers. The Baum and AST probably cover the largest number of these systems, but Snap-On covers the main ones. None of these scanners do well in the last catagory: adaptation/varient coding?programming. They all will do the other menu items. None will give the info necessary to use the information delivered.
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  #10  
Old 02-27-2004, 03:41 AM
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Steve

I have just discovered the MT2500 which I have regular access too and last week successfully connected up to the LH unit on my 500SL '93 LH5.1. All engine management data seemed ok and plentiful but I couldn't connect to the other MB modules like SRS, ABS and most importantly the ASR.

Is it at all possible with the MT2500? Do I need a different module? If so do you know which one by any chance?

I've tried emailing Snap-on but they don't want to talk to me!

Any advice much appreciated.
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  #11  
Old 02-27-2004, 08:49 AM
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One of the real skills in this trade is figuring out what to do when there is no communications. That is one reason I have a back-up for most of my test equpment as equpment is always a possibility. From a techs standpoint the next guess all too often is a control unit. Some times it is technique.

I spent about an hour yesterday trying to get rid of an instrument display on a Rover. I had factory info that said the quick up feature for the windows only worked on the front and gave instructions for initializing them. Turned out it was the back windows and the instructions were useless.

Anyway, your year could use different techniques for every control unit unfortunately. I believe that the ASR and SRS are impulse tested. Some scanners have that mode others don't.

I have a snap-on scanner but I don't have a MB module. I may have overstated snap-ons capabilities out side of engine. I know they have a real good plan for the later electronic transmissions.

That car has 10-15 controllers that can be talked to in a couple different methods. You really need the DM (diagnostic manual) to tell how to proceed. The consumer version of Alldata would do a good job here. It is one of the ways I will use Alldata. They have done a good job of sorting the DM into what is for your car by year. The DM is organized normally by system and if you don't know which system then the plan can be all wrong. I go to alldata often because they have figured that out pretty well.
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  #12  
Old 02-27-2004, 09:16 PM
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I'm still in pursuit of this solution myself... I've gotten the MT2500 head unit and I'm still looking for the MB cart and cables... new from Snap-On, they are about 650 dollars... so, in the meantime, the scanner head is just a cool paper weight.
The research I've done suggests that the MT2500 with the MB cart will allow you real time access to the PCM data bus (engine/trans), but none of the cars subsystems like SRS, ABS, etc. Myarma's outstanding prior post suggests this also.
If anybody has this combo and has gotten into the subsystems, please post.
Thanks.
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  #13  
Old 02-28-2004, 05:04 AM
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Thanks for your replies gents.

Steve

I have access to AllData - couldn't manage anything without it and therefore I'll spend some time reviewing the DTC and test procedures to figure out how the systems work on my '93.

However, as an electronic eng I can only image that the data is transfered serially from the each pin or by pulses. What is meant exactly by impulse tested? I'm assuming that the number of pulses within a certain time frame refers to a certain error code - is that correct?

Right - off to play with the MT2500 and couple this with further reading on AllData.

Cheers
Lea
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  #14  
Old 02-28-2004, 09:46 AM
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Look at the article in the dIY section on evaluating engine controls. It explains impulse counting. Yes, you have the basic concept. Trigger the response and count the blinks.

This transition period where some systems were impulse and some digital really messes with some techs. I had a car in not long ago that had been told it needed a control unit and something else on a SRS problem on an E420 (124 car). I started out with a scanner and couldn't get communications. Because the car came with a known diagnosis, I let myself stray and tried to prove a negative.

I spent some time verifying that the SRS controllr was properly powered (turned on) before it hit me that this was an impulse system. Got my impulse counter and quickly pulled a code for drivers airbag squib, which as in this case usually means clockspring arrangent beneath the steering wheel.

Whoever had made the original diagnosis condemned the controller because he couldn't get communications with the scanner. The whole repair was somewhere around $200 not the couple thou they had been told. Actually a fairly easy mistake. It will be nice when all cars are newer than 96 for us techs.
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  #15  
Old 03-01-2004, 02:29 PM
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The M-B Standard Service Equipment Program (SSEP), which can be viewed at StarTekInfo.com, has offered an M-B specific MT2500 package for some time.

Presently listed as 107-MT2501MB, the pack now includes the MT2500 scanner body, the newest M-B primary cartridge (MT2501103, covering MY '92-'03), MB1, 2A and DL-16 adapters, S-17, S-20 and S-21 OBD-II personality keys, and the M-B scanner user's manual. A detailed description of the cartridge can be found at Snap-On's web site. Regular list is $1,764, but now currently promo'ed at $1,611 through March 31, 2004. A lower price of $1,507 ended February 15.

M-B tools have been available for purchase from U.S. dealers; anyone know if this MT2500 pack can be purchased from a dealer or whether one can buy directly from M-B's SSEP?
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