I'm not disagreeing with you and I'm not trying to dissuade you from your pessismistic viewpoint.

I simply want to point out that even you have some hope for this fellow if he attends a military school. You agreed with the suggestion that he go to a military school and you seem to agree that a military school may straighten him out. I conclude this by your response, above, of "maybe, maybe not".

With that in mind, I don't see the need to wish that he ends up on a slab at the morgue.

Nothing more and nothing less.

yea - I know the kid and feel that he is too smart to end up dead anytime soon. Mother is shielding him somewhat and I don't think that is the right thing to do. It took awhile for me to instill in my wife how important it is for me to know everything my boys do. I do not have any trouble being the bad guy.

I think military school would do all of the teens that I have run accross lately some good.

Plantman
My $0.02
Please do not take your sons mention of suicide lightly. It might be just a plea for sympathy because he got into trouble, or not. Some people deal with being a teenager differently, but remember that it is a terrible screwed up state to be in. I would not want to be a teen again, ever. And seeing that it is time for confessions, I did seriously consider suicide as a teen. Not because I got into trouble, just because. If one is 15 and have a bunch of hormones messing with ones mind, sometimes things become rather dark and hopeless. Being caught with some pot at school was stupid on his part, but in the bigger scheme of things it is not the end of the world. His urge to do drugs and suicidal thoughts could be related. I am not saying that Pot leads to suicide, quite the contrary... No matter what the macho men say, teenage depression is real, and it is not cured by caning or whipping "the skin off your a$$" (as my mother used to say). Or sending the offending offspring off some Military school. If you think your child has severe depression, get some help.
All the best

I'd laugh it off. I've seen too many people when in trouble threaten suicide because they think that will open the sympathy floodgates. In fact, I think if my wife ever caught me cheating on her and confronted me, I'll threaten to kill myself too and she will be so distressed that she will forgive me. The people I know of who commited suicide have been of the "strong, silent type" so to speak. They make up their mind and then they execute the plan. I have never seen anyone who was a poser actually do it and I have challenged a couple. Seems such a coincidence that he tells dad that his life is worthless, etc, etc just when he is in trouble, isn't it? Maybe I should have told the cop that pulled me over that I want to die too and maybe he will forget about the ticket. If he is that hosed up, he should be hosed up all day long and not just when he is in hot water.

These days, if I see someone threaten suicide, I just label them "AW" (Attention Whore) and laugh it off to their face. Yes, I was a teen once too. Yes, I have looked down the barrel of a gun before. No, no one knew it then. I never had to announce that I was going to kill myself. Maybe that was what I did wrong when I was suspended from school. I should have threatened to kill myself. Sorry, but while I am willing to see if I can help the needy, I have absolutely no, zero, zip, patience for the AWs of the world. My MIL threatend to do herself in and when called on it, backed out. Someone I knew tried to kill herself on Tylenol (A whole 10 of them) when called out on the carpet. Been there myself and done that and seen too many people threaten but not have the stones to carry it out to feel moved by the "Threat of Suicide under duress". Now, I would tell them to check out a copy of "The Final Exit" and do it right. Don't take anyone else with you. Don't make a mess. Do it nice and neat.

I have $1000 to your $10 that says that if called out, he won't do it. I'll even take $5 or $1 just to prove my point.

I tend to agree with you on this one. But, as usual, you see things in black and white. In your scenario, every single individual who threatens suicide is full of $hit.

What if Plantman takes your advice and you are wrong?

Think he would be happy with a $1000. instead of his son??

You ought to think a bit deeper about some things before you just plaster them up here.

I guess that I tend to think and make decisions based on odds. My dogs are like children to me. The only difference is that I don't have to worry about one of them being like the Menedez kids. I'd throw every penny I had at them if I had to. However, when I send them for any sort of treatment, I have to make sure it will have reasonable chance of success. IOW, if the treatment has a 1 in 1000 chance of being successful, No thanx. Just like a car, buying an S class vs a Yugo will not be a 100% thing when comparing longevity. However the odds are with the S-Class. Of course, some yugo might fare better than a lemon S-Class which I am sure MB has produced. Yes, sometimes the odds are in my favor but over a stroke of bad luck I end up losing.

Just like the time I lost one of my dogs. However, that does not mean that I will do the reverse every time. I lost a Shar Pei to kidney failure. Does this mean I test every dog over the age of 6 for kidney issues (Bun Creatnin) ever 6 months? No. However, Shar Peis are predisposed to kidney failure so only my 8 yo shar pei gets tested twice a year. My 13 yo Pit gets tested for that every couple of years and the young Am Staff and Rott aren;t even tested as a precautionary measure because they don't fit the profile. Sure, one day I might be wrong and the young Rott or Am Staff might get kidney failure but the odds favor me and that is what I have to go by otherwise I will be testing everyone ever 6 months for nothing.

The issue is not whether you play the odds and whether you are right or wrong.

As I stated initially, I agree with you. The odds clearly favor the position whereby the person threatening suicide is simply attempting to curry favor or gain sympathy.

The odds may be in the area of 10:1000, as you have alluded. You would place a $1000. bet that Plantman's son is full of $hit.

You place some odds on the Shar Pei developing kidney failure and you have him tested every six months. You place different odds on the Am Staff and the Rottweiler and don't test these at all.

What if you are wrong regarding the dogs? The dog loses it's life because you were playing the odds on the tests, correct? Clearly, you will accept the loss of the dog's life and it won't bother you one iota.

However, my initial point to you, and one that I will reiterate, is that I am quite sure that Plantman is not going to play the odds with his son's life because of the consequences of being wrong.

And, I would encourage you to realize that other people will likely not feel the same way you do about the dogs and your advice to them may have catastrophic consequences to their lives, if the odds don't play out as you think they will.

As someone who has worked with many teens from diverse backgrounds, I would suggest avoiding an odds-based calculus when dealing with actual people. There are no causal links between any one kid and any odds you can find- odds are created after events, and so are able to change.

Dogs are not kids, nor are they ever treated that way, regardless of the contention of the 'owner'. Even the language suggests as much. Kids don't have an owner. Dogs are not going to reach the point of despondancy at which they decide to take their own life.

more came out today
 

Looks like they also found another box cutter, some cigs and a lighter in the kids desk. Seems he was carrying them and he figured it would be better to stash them than to get caught carrying.
I'm thinking this kid gets dumber and dumber the more I learn about him.

Well, I do test them but not quite as often as once every 6 months. More like once every 2 years or 3 years. What if I am wrong? I would be extremely sad but like everything else, I will accept that I did the best I could, within reason.

His consequences of being wrong are about the same as mine if I am wrong. Remember, it is not what YOU value a dog's life at that is in question. Everything has a value. How much depends on the person asked. To you, my dog is a 4 legged animal that is replacable, just like Plantman's son is a two legged creature that means little to me. However, I would argue that his son is worth to him what my dogs are worth to me. My 91 Firebird was not a pile of nuts and bolts to me. However, to you, it might be a piece of metal. How can you say what an item is worth to me? Who are you to say that my dog is replacable? As such, I put it to you, that while it is just a dog to you that you can buy from a breeder, it is worth much more to me. I wouldn't sell my dog any more than Plantman would sell his son. So, I put it to you that I feel the same way about my dog as Plantman feels about his son. I wouldn't advocate he play the odds that his son is bluffing any more than I would play the odds on my dogs and I do go on odds when it comes to my dogs who are like my children to me.

I think that he DOES feel the same way about his kid that I feel about my dogs. Yes, they are not the same species but the bond we have is similar. So, if my Rott dies from kidney failure and I played the odds and lost, it would be as devestating to me as it would be to Plantman. However, as long as I know I did the best I could do, within reason, with my dogs and not neglected them, I will be sad at their departure but I realize that there is only so much I can do. Sure, when my dog misbehaves, I have to discipline her. Yes, I hate the job but I have to do it.

[QUOTE=Zeus]He's at a detention center for possession of marijuana?

In Vancouver you can buy pot anywhere you want, it's literally easier to get than alcohol - the dealers don't card you. :rolleyes:

Just my $0.02 CDN... :D

QUOTE]

Suddenly, that move to Canada looks like a much better idea. ;)

YOUR language, maybe. Our dogs are family to us. No offense but if I had to choose between you or my dogs, it would be a "No Contest" thing and they would win out. The reason is that our bond is based on this internet. However, my bond with my dogs are a much deeper bond. Do you have anything that has more value than it's monetary value? If I smashed that and said "Here, book value is $100. Paid in full." would you say "Ok. No problem."? Take a heirloom passed down from your grandfather to your father to you, would you sell it for book value? Maybe it even has no book value but it means more than money to you. Could money replace it? I don't think so. To me, it may be a piece of scrap metal. To you, it might be priceless.

In a sense, they can. When they are sick or too old, one day, they will be ok and the next they just decide "Enough is enough.". They might not eat and just lay there waiting for you to end it for them. I know that for the most part, it is going to be up to me to terminate a miserable existance for them. It will be a sad day but I know my duties to them.

Unfortunately you are contradicting yourself.

If you felt as strongly about those dogs as Plantman likely feels about his son, then you would not place odds on the life of the dog. You would have the dog(s) tested so that you would be absolutely sure that the dog(s) would not develop kidney failure.

I indicated to you above, that your advice to Plantman to play the 100:1 odds is foolish because of the consequences of being wrong.

You seem to accept the consequences of being wrong about the dogs as a matter of course, and I therefore conclude that the life of Plantman's son is far more valuable to Plantman than the dogs are to you.

what B.C. said.

and

I contend that your situation is asimilar not only due to the inherent difference between an actual human offspring and a found member of another species, but also due to the relationship that other creature is capable of having with you. A dog, given away to a new home with steak dinners every night will soon forget anything you ever did. No matter how special you think your bond is, you can be replaced as far as the dog is concerned. Sure, Greyfriar's Bobby blah blah blah. Try it. Children do not function in this way, though you might find the odd counterexample in need of psychotherapy.

Also, you don't have to admit or realize it is asimilar for it to be so.

I do test them. Like I said, because they don't fit the profile, not quite as often because they are not likely to get Amyloidosis. Amyloidosis seems to be an overwhelming cause of premature death from kidney failures in Shar Peis. Unless they start to show certain symptoms, you cannot test for anything and everything everyday. You have to draw the line at some point. You don't go to the doctor for a physical everyday. Why once a year only? (once in 2 years for me) Why not ever 3 months? What if something developes right after your visit to the doctor? You will wait for a year to discover it? What if the doctor missed something? You wait for the next year to discover it? You could be terminal by then. You have to draw the line somewhere. Since it is often known as "Shar Pei Fever", and it is quite rare in other dogs, would you test for it in younger dogs of other species as you would in an older dog that is a Shar Pei UNLESS they show some symptoms?

In my case, the consequences of being wrong would mean the death of a companion and family member. That said, even with my own health, I will not do a colonoscopy every week just to make sure I don't have colon cancer. I might do it say once ever 3 years. Would I be playing the odds more than if I checked every week (assuming money was no object)? Absolutely. I go by the same standard that I prescribed. Like I said, what is the alternative? Sit on the edge of my seat everyday and checking? Can't do that. I have to do somethign that is reasonable.

Of course I accept the consequences of being wrong, as long as I am convinced that the standards were within reason, as a matter of course. I will not beat myself up when it comes to my dogs, my car, my wife or even myself. Yes, I wished I had zigged sometimes when I zagged. However, IF at the time, it seemed like the right thing to do and I cannot find a flaw in the process I used to derive that answer, what else is there to do, besides self-flagellation? And we all know how productive that is. I had a Shar Pei die of Ayloidosis. Was I heartbroken for a long while? Sure. Do I miss her? Of course. That being said, I analysed the process, found that I didn't know about that tendency of the breed, learnt more and moved on. I could sit here and beat myself up for not reading more about it if I wanted to. Hindsight is 20/20, but why?