Maybe and maybe not. However, my point is that I value my dogs like a member of my family even though they are not the "fruit of my loins". Since I would not want to lose my dogs, I don't think I will try it.

I am sure of one thing though, I don't have to worry about them puting a shotgun to my head like the Menandez kids or the girl who shot her father who came back from a tour in the middle east. Personally, I feel that psychotherapy is about as accurate as voodoo. I know I fooled a few child psychcologists and psychiatrists in my time when I was 10-13 yo and have done it recently just to see if I still had it.

You are correct with regard to drawing the line. You cannot take the dogs in for a test every week and you can't go to the doctor for a physical exam every month.

However, there is a difference.

In the case of the dogs, or yourself for that matter, one of them can be lost by your failure to act in a timely fashion due to failure to test at the appropriate time to diagnose the disease in time to treat it. If you lose a family member due to this, I can imagine that the pain would be enormous, however, it can be rationalized to a certain degree, as you have done here.

In the case of Plantman, it would be the result of his direct action to refuse to acknowledge the possibility, as you have advised, that his son may be suicidal.

I submit to you that that Plantman's situation whereby he is presented with a decision to act regarding what to do with his son might produce more heartache for Plantman, if the odds go against him, than your situation with the Shar Pei, if the odds go against you, because of your failure to act.

Note that I make no judgment about the value of a dog's life to you vs. the value of the child's life to Plantman. I leave this to others.

I tend to see it as I cannot cover every base. Not physically possible. Now, I will try the likely ones but if they are unlikely then they will wait. As such, I ask you. How many people do you know that tell you they are going to commit suicide and actually carry it out? I am not talking about them dying as a result of being an AW and accidently doing this when they should have done that. Everyone I have ever seen and it seems to me like most cases, when the person threatens suicide, they are full of crap. So, it becomes like amyloidosis in my case. Yes, it is possible but highly unlikely. And in this case, also possible that the kid is going to do it but highly unlikely. Based on what I have seen, it is more likely that he is trying to change the subject by threatening suicide. So, should I drop everything and check every time he threatens? I wouldn't. Like my decision with amyloidosis, it is highly unlikely that I am wrong so I won't bother to test monthly, in this case, it is highly unlikely that a clown that threatens suicide will actually carry it out so I won't bother to drop everything and run to his side. In my opinion, that is just not possible to do. Love has it's limits too. It stops where common sense ends.

You are repeating the same argument.

In a nutshell, you use statistics to argue that you are not going to spend the money to test the dog when it is highly unlikely that the dog will have amyloidosis. You make a decision to do limited tests and you are OK with the outcome.

You further argue that the same statistics should allow Plantman to simply ignore the "I'm going to commit suicide" statement by his son.

I repeat the issue that the former case is a failure to act.

Plantman's case must be a deliberate decision on his part. He must act to take the statement seriously or he must act to ignore the statement. He does not have the luxury of your position with the dogs.

As such, I maintain that a decision that would go against the odds would have more devestating consequences to Plantman than it would to you.

If you disagree, then please argue the counterpoint to the paragraph just above and don't repeat old arguments.

So your thesis is that it makes a difference between a deliberate decision vs failure to act? Therefore, if my case had been a deliberate decision and his had been failure to act it would make my consequences more devestating than his? I guess I don't know then. I never differentiated the "why", in that sense. I research the "why" so I don't repeat the same mistake but personally, I really don't see how the "why" would change how I feel. I guess I look at it as a loss and it ends there as opposed to the next step of how bad I should feel based on the reason for the loss.

Hyothetically, if Plantman is aware of statements made by his son, but has never taken them seriously enough to analyze them and make a decision one way or the other, then, he would be in a position of failure to act.

When in this position, he has not deliberately taken either side of the 1:100 odds. He may feel guilt and anguish if the worst circumstances would occur, however, it is possible to assuage his guilt by consoling him and explaining that there was nothing he could have done and that he never could have forseen this tragic result.

However, if he were to carefully analyze the situation and choose to take your position on the matter with the 100:1 odds, and the odds go against him, I would suggest to you that his deliberate decision would make the consequences to him far more devastating.

And this is why I disagree with your original advice to ignore the statements made by his son.

Well, for me anyways, having been on both sides of whether it was failure to act or deliberate decision, I tend to see the result and when it is bad, nothing actually consoles me. In fact, if someone were to try console me, it infurates me even more.

I look at the result and see if it is desirable or not. Of course, the case of my Shar Pei could be looked as a deliberate decision since I knew earlier on that she had some other health issues and didn't consider them serious enough to actually go study up on what the breed was succeptable till it was too late. In either case, my dog died. I doubt it would have made any difference if you had told me that it was a failure to act and not a deliberate decison since either way, the dog died and will not live again. I don't know. Maybe it is just me but I just never thought of it one way or the other. I just moved on. Of course, I analysed the situation and read up on the breeds and their illnesses.

If you recognize this, after the tragic event, then I concur that it can be viewed as a deliberate decision for you.

But, still not quite as deliberate as fully understanding the variables in advance, knowing the risks, and rolling the 100:1 die.

Is a tragic event caused by a failure to act vs. a tragic event caused by a deliberate decision less traumatic for the individual involved? I suppose that it depends on the individual. For you, with your calculating mind, I would suggest they would be the same. The dog has died, the grief is significant, and the cause of the situation is now irrelevant.

But, it may be quite different for others.

It is the same to me. Also I dislike being manuplated by anyone and I do sense manuplation in this case seeing as it is such a coincidence so I won't swallow the bait. I tend to do what Singapore did to Michael Fay. He commited some acts of valdalism and was arrested. He tried the Classic American Defense, I have (insert mental problem here) and need help. They basically said "OK, go get the help that you need. AFTER the punishment, that is." Most things I don't like about Singapore but that is one of the things I do like. BTW, a couple years later after Bill Clinton begged for a reduced sentence (I think it was reduced from 6 strokes to 4 of the cane) that clown almost killed himself freebasing cocaine.

I'm back. My home cpu is on the blink and I have been working quite a bit.

I believe that his statement that " I don't want to be here" was made because he got caught, was embarrassed and humiliated at being cuffed, taken to jail in a police car and had to face me. Also, he thinks he knows how to work the sympathy vote.

I think a lot of people might think of not being alive at that point. While I take it seriously and will watch him, I asked him flat out if he wanted to kill himself and he said no.

Several years ago, at 12-13 he got punished, and mentioned to his mother that " you know Mom, certain kids think of suicide when they get punished". Well my wife gets nervous and tell me. She then sees him with a butter knife, tapping his veins, well I grab him, with a bigger sharper knife and go outside and tell him tha tif he want's to kill himself, to use the right knife and do it in front of me, not his mother. His eyes get as wide as my swimming pool and I take the knife and place it in his hands and tell him to stop ****ing around, and show me how much balls he actually has. Well now he starts shaking and twitching and hyperventilating and says he doesn't want to kill himself and that died right there.

The other day, he was genuinely in fear of an ass whipping and was trembling as I was talking to him.

I told him he's allowed 1 mistake when it comes to drugs without any physical reprecussions, as he was allowed 1 mistake when it came to him taking money from me.

If he does either, all bets are off and he will feel the pain.

I honestly think he's a good kid and will straighten himself out, without further incidence in this regard.

I spoke to the AP who was doing the weapons search and he mentioned that more than likely, he will be allowed bakc to school. due to his good grades and conduct. That kid has literally never gotten in any disciplinary situations ever.

I'm hoping that it's just a case of trying something once, making a mistake and learning from it.

In any event, I will monitor him and his acquaintances more closely.

Ironically, the kids in the neighborhood, including his best friend, were pretty shocked and made comments, like "what were you thinking, that's messed up, what's wrong with you"

The one who exposed him to it is a kid from school whom I have never met nor heard about.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Well, Aklim, it would appear that your advice was spot on in this case. Plantman took the 100:1 shot in his favor and it clearly worked out.

Plantman: Good luck with the road to recovery with him. Seems like you are well on the way. Hopefully he gets back into the same school.

Plantman-

I'm catching up with this (been too busy).

My sympathies and thoughts are with you and the family. I’ve got two teenage daughters (14 & 17) and this issue hits close to home, at least in terms of my worry factors. We keep them very active (sports) and have a good idea who they’re with and where they are, but we both know there are no guarantees or “silver bullets” in raising kids.

Some good advice has been flowing here. Looks like the community is very supportive.

Question: Am I the only one who, when they read about the kid with razor, thought “razor blade” and cocaine?

Good luck with school processes and with your work with your son.

Drug tests
 

Sorry it took so long. You get a drug test at any name brand drug store in the Pharmacy area. They have several different kinds. :)

Mine is not out of the water yet
 

Seems about a month ago he and a group of friends found an ATM card at the mall and proceeded to use it to purchase gas and some clothes. We got a summons in the mail box last week for him to appear in juvi court on March 7th. He claims he did not use the card and is only being charged with being a party to the crime. Unfortunately, he was just a couple weeks away from getting off of probation.

Heads up to everyone (something I did not know). ATM cards can be used without a pin number. Don't ask me how but they can.

They will have photographic evidence if he used it or not. THey snap pictures at all the machines.............someone intercepted my brothers card from the mail a number of years ago.....they caught the person over numerour withdrawls.