The reality based community

[peragro]

Originally Posted by dculkin

My mistake.

Are you saying that he was against the Vietnam War when he went over there?

He was for John Kerry when he went over there. He took whatever position he needed to and changed often. It's irrelevent as to what the cause is .

[Honus]

Originally Posted by glenmore

I feel much better now.

Thru the fog of so many threads I vaguely remember asking you or someone else what they thought of the character of someone as a means for me be to "calibrate" their judgement.

I've never read a more backwardflip flopped characterization of John Kerry....

Glenmore,

Can you please explain a few things for me? For example, what do you think I meant to say about Kerry? How does my statemnet help you "calibrate" my judgement? And, most importantly, why in the world does your calibration of my judgement affect how you feel?

I suspect that you are attaching meanings to my statement about Kerry that I never intended. All I meant to say is that he was a pathetic candidate. He opened himself up to so many easy attacks. I just don't think he is as much as a goofball as he made himself appear to be. From that you can calibrate my judgement?

[MTI]

Bush: US must finish job in Iraq to honor the fallen
22 Aug 2005 21:03:30 GMT
Source: Reuters
By Caren Bohan

SALT LAKE CITY, Aug 22 (Reuters) - President George W. Bush, speaking amid protests and growing public unease over Iraq, said on Monday America owed it to the more than 1,800 U.S. soldiers killed there to complete the mission, which he linked with the campaign against terrorism.

In a speech to a convention of Veterans of Foreign Wars, Bush again linked the Iraq war with efforts to protect the United States from another Sept. 11-style attack -- a link critics say is an attempt to shift the justification for war.

"Iraq is a central front in the war on terror," Bush said. "It is a vital part of our mission."

In his speech, Bush, who rarely gives specific numbers for the death toll, said a total of 1,864 U.S. soldiers had been killed in Iraq and 223 in Afghanistan and acknowledged the grief faced by their families.

But he added, "We owe them something. We will finish the task that they gave their lives for. We'll honor their sacrifice by staying on the offensive against the terrorists and building strong allies in Afghanistan and Iraq that will help us win and fight ... the war on terror."

Critics accuse Bush of shifting his argument for war when he invokes the issue of terrorism to argue for staying the course in Iraq. They point out that a commission investigating the hijacked plane attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, found no operational ties between those attacks and deposed Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's government.

The White House says the presence in Iraq of al Qaeda-linked insurgents shows the link with terrorism, although the U.S. administration concedes many of those militants have come into Iraq from other countries since the U.S. invasion. [edited]

Okay, so who is manipulating the fallen American soldier now?

[luvrpgrl]

Originally Posted by GermanStar

The Bush campaign initiated a whisper campaign (supposedly a Karl Rove special) in the south (possibly SC) during the 2000 primary, which condemned John McCain for having a brown baby. Of course, there was no mention of the fact that the child was adopted. Just my O, but that is really about as low as low can get.

Nahhhh, its not even a close second to low of lows, as when the Dems tried to disqualify soldiers votes because they werent postmarked properly.

[luvrpgrl]

Originally Posted by peragro

He was for John Kerry when he went over there. He took whatever position he needed to and changed often. It's irrelevent as to what the cause is .

In the 2004 campaign, sKerry took some rather , "unusual" posistions.

He claimed Bush was for big business and giving them tax cuts, which he, Kerry, would roll back, raising taxes on corp.'s.

Then when accusing the Bush admin. of allowing and incouraging outsourcing of jobs, he was asked what he would do to slow it down.

One of his main proposals was to give a tax cut to all companies that do overseas business when they do more business inside the US. Hmmm, tax hike, tax cut, tax hike, tax cut, tax hike, tax cut.....and on it goes.

[GermanStar]

Originally Posted by luvrpgrl

Nahhhh, its not even a close second to low of lows, as when the Dems tried to disqualify soldiers votes because they werent postmarked properly.

Yeah you're right. After all, it isn't like is was a white baby, right?

[glenmore]

Originally Posted by dculkin

Right you are. I shouldn't be surprised. Kerry was yet another lame Democrat candidate.The odd thing about Kerry is that I think he is a man of substance, he just acts like he isn't.

Originally Posted by dculkin

Glenmore,

Can you please explain a few things for me? For example, what do you think I meant to say about Kerry? How does my statemnet help you "calibrate" my judgement? And, most importantly, why in the world does your calibration of my judgement affect how you feel?

I suspect that you are attaching meanings to my statement about Kerry that I never intended. All I meant to say is that he was a pathetic candidate. He opened himself up to so many easy attacks. I just don't think he is as much as a goofball as he made himself appear to be. From that you can calibrate my judgement?

I took issue with your comment "The odd thing about Kerry is that I think he is a man of substance, he just acts like he isn't". My impression of him is that he is a man of NO substance, but acts like he IS. Your post did describe him as "yet another lame Democrat candidate" and as I reconsider, this is more accurate as to your opinion. I see Bush et al as all pretty decent people. I don't see John Kerry that way. My thinking was, if your impressions of Bush et al are all bad but thought highly of Kerry, then that was all I needed to know, to "calibrate", your judgement. But since you agree that he was a "pathetic candidate", we're fine.

As to how I feel, we all strive for some consensus of analysis and thought. In considering someone's wildly divergent views, one must always consider the possibility, however slight, that they may be right. But the more offbase views that someone holds, the easier it is to dismiss them.

glenmore

[Honus]

Originally Posted by glenmore

I took issue with your comment "The odd thing about Kerry is that I think he is a man of substance, he just acts like he isn't". My impression of him is that he is a man of NO substance, but acts like he IS. Your post did describe him as "yet another lame Democrat candidate" and as I reconsider, this is more accurate as to your opinion. I see Bush et al as all pretty decent people. I don't see John Kerry that way. My thinking was, if your impressions of Bush et al are all bad but thought highly of Kerry, then that was all I needed to know, to "calibrate", your judgement. But since you agree that he was a "pathetic candidate", we're fine.

As to how I feel, we all strive for some consensus of analysis and thought. In considering someone's wildly divergent views, one must always consider the possibility, however slight, that they may be right. But the more offbase views that someone holds, the easier it is to dismiss them.

glenmore

Understood.

[matt7531]

My Response to George as He Speaks from His Vacation Away from His Vacation
By Cindy Sheehan
www.huffingtonpost.com


"President Bush charged Tuesday that anti-war protesters like Cindy Sheehan who want troops brought home immediately do not represent the views of most U.S. military families and are 'advocating a policy that would weaken the United States.'"

Bringing our troops home from the quagmire that he has gotten us into will be weakening the United States? George: even if you pretend you didn't know that Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction and Iraq was not threat to the USA before you invaded, Americans know differently. We have read the reports and the Downing Street Memos. We know you had to "fit the intelligence around the policy" of invading Iraq. I want to know what your real reasons were.

"In brief remarks outside the resort where he is vacationing, Bush gave no indication that he would change his mind and meet with Sheehan after he returns to his Texas ranch Wednesday evening. Sheehan lost a son in Iraq and has emerged as a harsh critic of the war."

I will be back in Crawford, George: Even closer to you now in Camp Casey II. Why don't you channel some courage from my son and come down and face me. Face the truth. Your house of cards built on smoke and mirrors is crumbling and you know it.

"Sheehan has been maintaining a vigil outside Bush's ranch, a demonstration that has been joined by more and more other anti-war protesters."

Because I am not the only one in America who wants the answers, America wants the answers.

"Bush said that two high-ranking members of his staff already met with her earlier this month and that he met with her last year."

I didn't go to Crawford to meet with Steven "Yellow cake uranium liar" Hadley or the other "high-ranking" official they sent out. I went to meet with George. Does he get that yet? I did meet with him 10 weeks after his insane and arrogant Iraq war policies killed Casey and 9 weeks after I buried my oldest child. George: things are different between you and I now.

"'I've met with a lot of families,' Bush said. 'She doesn't represent the view of a lot of families I have met with.'"

I never said I did. I want one answer: What is the "noble cause" MY son died for. There are also dozens, if not hundreds of families from all over the country who want to know the same thing.

"On Iraq, Bush said that a democratic constitution 'is going to be an important change in the broader Middle East.' Reaching an accord on a constitution after years of dictatorship is not easy, Bush said."

A Democratic Constitution? Is anyone else insulted that he thinks we are stupid and think that the Constitution they will form in Iraq will be democratic and ensure equal rights to all citizens? Does anyone else know what "democratic" means? It simply means majority rule. Not some high-minded, free-floating, pie in the sky ideal. It means 50 percent plus one. Up to 62% of Americans think our troops should be coming home soon. That is a majority, so why don't we force our employee, the president, to do what we want him to do?

"He spoke after the head of the committee drafting Iraq's constitution said Tuesday that three days are not enough to win over the minority Sunni Arabs, and the document they rejected may ultimately have to be approved by parliament as is and submitted to the people in a referendum."

Another sham election where the country is shut down for the day and no one knows what the heck they are voting for?

"'The Iraqi people are working hard to reach a consensus on their constitution,' Bush said, speaking outside the Tamarack Resort, in the mountains 100 miles north of Boise. 'It's an amazing process to work. First of all, the fact that they're even writing a constitution is vastly different from living under the iron hand of a dictator.'"

As hard as George is working riding bikes and taking naps? If he cares so much about an Iraqi Constitution, why doesn't he take some time from his busy vacation activities and read the US Constitution. He may find out that he started an un-Constitutional war in Iraq. He may lose some sleep over it. (What am I saying?)

"'The Sunnis have got to make a choice,' Bush said. 'Do they want to live in a society that's free? Or do they want to live in violence?'"

Too bad George didn't give them that option before he invaded and occupied their country resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people. I bet they would choose to live in a peaceful country free of foreign occupiers.

"He said he thought that most mothers, regardless of their religion, would prefer to live in peace rather than violence."

Amen to that George. You got one thing right. Thanks to you and your lies the people of Iraq are suffering from a tragic and unnecessary war and my son was violently killed and ripped out of the heart of our family.

"He said Rice had assured him that the rights of women were being protected. 'Democracy is unfolding,' the president said. 'We just cannot tolerate the status quo.'"

Then bring our troops home. The status quo in Iraq is awful. Besides the Iraqi people suffering from lack of adequate infrastructure, clean water, and medical attention, our troops still don't have armored humvees or the proper body armor. I got a letter from a soldier over in Iraq who says that he feels like an innocent man in prison. All of the soldiers and Marines who contact me say that they were lied to about the "mission." They were told that they would be rebuilding the country and all they are doing is trying to survive so their moms won't go through what I am going through. I think the Camp Casey movement is taking a hold and growing because America is sick of the status quo. We are sick of needless death and suffering on both sides. We are sick of paying for a war with our taxes and with our lifeblood that is not making our country more secure. George: your employers cannot tolerate the status quo, either.

"On Sheehan, the grieving mother who has camped near his ranch since Aug. 6, the president said he strongly supports her right to protest. 'She expressed her opinion. I disagree with it,' Bush said. 'I think immediate withdrawal from Iraq would be a mistake,' he said. 'I think those who advocate immediate withdrawal from not only Iraq but the Middle East are advocating a policy that would weaken the United States.'"

This is the biggest smokescreen from him yet. I didn't ask him to withdraw the troops, I asked him what Noble Cause did Casey die for. I am still waiting for one member of the press corps to ask him that. I am still waiting for that answer. First, we were told WMD: false. Then we were told Saddam=Osama: false. Then we were told Saddam was a bad man to his own people and we had to get rid of him: he's gone. Then we were told the Iraqi people had to have elections: they did. Now we are spreading "freedom and democracy" but we are building 14 permanent bases, some the size of Sacramento, Ca. To me that indicates that we are spreading the cancer of imperialism and usurping THEIR natural resources.

"Bush has scheduled more than two hours to meet with family members of slain soldiers Wednesday at the Mountain Home Air Force Base near Boise."

I am just asking for an hour from his vacation, and he just has to come down the road, not travel to Idaho. I wonder if any of the hand-picked family members will ask what noble cause their child died for. I hope so.

"Bush said he planned to go on a hike and have dinner later Tuesday with Kempthorne and the Idaho congressional delegation. Bush said he also planned to spend 'quality time' with first lady Laura Bush, who is traveling with him."

I would give everything I own, will own, or have owned to have one more glimpse of my son. Dare I even say...one last hug or phone call? How dare he go on vacation and live a normal life when he has ruined mine by his lies? How dare he take 5 weeks off when he is waging a devastating and needless war?


"Bush, who is seeking to quell growing criticism at home over the Iraq war, told the Veterans of Foreign Wars national convention in Salt Lake City on Monday that 'a policy of retreat and isolation will not bring us safety.'"


His policies of preemptive wars of aggression for power and greed don't bring America safety, either.


"Bush made a rare reference of the U.S. military death toll -- more than 2,000 killed in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. 'We owe them something. We will finish the task that they gave their lives for ... by staying on the offensive against the terrorists, and building strong allies in Afghanistan and Iraq that will help us win and fight -- fight and win the war on terror,- he told the VFW convention."

How does he honor the soldiers by killing more of their buddies? People say Casey is ashamed of me and I dishonor his memory! I knew my son better than anyone on earth and I know he is appalled by the continued carnage in his name. George: you can't win the war on terror by killing more of our soldiers and innocent Iraqi people. You are breeding more terror. And judging from the fact that you are now tied with the worst president in US history (Nixon) in your abysmal poll numbers, the people of our country realize this too and want you stopped!

[Botnst]

Oops!!!!

[luvrpgrl]

AS I was driving today, I heard a lady interviewed on talk radio. She had lost her son in Iraq also

I think she presented the other side opposed to sheehan and did something about it, Im not sure, I didnt quite catch everything.

Anyways, she said the rest of the sheehan family called her, and told her they support her and oppose everything cindy is doing and casey's uncle said cindy is disgracing her sons memory.

Another lady was on and talks about how proud her son is of what we are doing there and how the Iraqis invite them into their homes, feed them, the kids hug them, they say they dont understand why the mass media presents such a distorted and negative view of whats going on. She said, he said it lowers their moral when they watch the mass media crap.

Originally Posted by Botnst

Drive-by cut-n-paste by "You-Know-Who."

All you can do is pity the ones that claim they have learned so much from him.

[matt7531]

August 24, 2005 [The Huffington Post]


[Cindy Sheehan] Cindy Sheehan [Blog Index] [RSS]
08.24.2005
Coming Back to Crawford (52 comments )


I'm coming back to Crawford for my son. As long as the president, who sent him to die in a senseless war, is in Crawford, that is where I belong. I came here two and a half weeks ago for one reason, to try and see the president and get an answer to a very simple question: What is the noble cause that he says my son died for?

The answer to that question will not bring my son back. But it may stop more meaningless deaths. Because every death is now a meaningless one. And the vast majority of our country knows this. So why do more young men and women have to die? And why do more parents have to lose their children and live the rest of their lives with this unbearable grief?

The presidency is not bigger than the people's will.

And when the people speak out, it's the president's reponsibility to listen. He is there to serve us, not the other way around.

This isn't about politics. It's about what is good for America and what's best for our security and how far this president has taken us away from both.

I'm coming back to Crawford because -- now and forever -- this is my duty for my son, for my other children, for other parents, and for my country.

[Botnst]

Here's another!

Duck and cover!

[matt7531]

I know it's hard to face up to those who are really losing people in this war while you make jokes and dream world-conquest fantasies, so here is some more to help you get over it. For one thing, you will find what really happened in Sheehan's first meeting with Bush, instead of the false stories in Drudge Report you held so dear back when you called her a 'nutty broad":


The bereaved rate Bush
Recalling their meetings with the president, Cindy Sheehan says "he has no compassion" and Roxanne Kaylor calls him "a liar," but Sherry Orlando says he was "very sincere."

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Mark Benjamin
salon.com


Aug. 23, 2005 | When antiwar catalyst Cindy Sheehan first met George W. Bush in June 2004, she said she wasn't a protester yet, but she still asked the president the $64,000 question.

"I said, 'Why did my son die?'" Sheehan told me in a telephone interview in June this year, weeks before she went to Texas to besiege the vacationing president. "And he said, 'I believe that everyone is born free and your son died for the freedom of the Iraqi people.'"


She said that when she met the president, she accused him of meeting with the families of fallen soldiers to generate good P.R. prior to the 2004 election. "He told me, 'This is not about politics,'" Sheehan said. "But I knew it was complete baloney."

When we talked in June, I hadn't heard of Sheehan. I was gathering string for an article about parents who met the president after their kids had been killed in Iraq. Bush had chosen a unique method of consolation: He was visiting military bases across the country, meeting privately with the families of fallen soldiers. No media. No photos. No recording devices. What was the president like behind closed doors? Some family members gave him glowing reviews. And some didn't.

Sheehan met Bush at Fort Lewis, Wash. Her son, Army Spc. Casey A. Sheehan, had been killed in Sadr City in early April 2004, just a few months earlier. She described Bush as insincere and ill-prepared. She said he kept referring to her as "Mom" because he did not remember her name. "He came in inappropriately jovial, like we should be honored that we should be there. He said, 'And who am I honoring today?'"

If the president tried to disarm an obviously prickly Sheehan, he failed. "He has no compassion," she said. "Being with him is like being with a shell. He does not have any compassion. He did not want to look at the pictures we brought of Casey." Sheehan said Bush kept changing the subject.

Arizona Republican Sen. John McCain was with the president that day. He also visited with Sheehan and her family. McCain supports the war. In comparison to Bush, Sheehan said McCain sparkled. "He wanted to hear about Casey and he wanted our story. I said, 'Is my son's death going to mean anything?' And he said, 'Not if we lose.'"

Like photos of American soldiers' caskets, Bush's mourning for the dead has been conspicuously absent in the Iraq war. But some presidents have mourned in public. President Clinton attended a service in the memory of the sailors killed in the attack on the USS Cole. In 1983, President Reagan went to a ceremony at Camp Lejeune, N.C., to honor those killed in the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon. President Lyndon Johnson attended the funerals of two soldiers killed in Vietnam.

Bush, though, has privately visited families at Fort Stewart, Ga.; Fort Carson, Colo.; Fort Polk, La.; Fort Campbell, Ky.; Fort Lewis and Camp Pendleton, Calif., among others. In most cases, families are placed in separate rooms in a building on a military base. The president shuttles from room to room, meeting privately with each family. That leaves only secondhand accounts of how the president acts when he has to look a grieving mother in the eye.

Former White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan has described the private meetings as an "appropriate" way to meet with the families of fallen soldiers, so the president can "express his appreciation both as commander in chief and on behalf of the American people."

Some families praised Bush. "He was very personable," Sherri Orlando said in a telephone conversation from Fort Campbell, Ky., where she works in the Fort Campbell public affairs office. Orlando's husband, Army Lt. Col. Kim S. Orlando, was killed when a group of Iraqis opened fire on him and fellow soldiers on a road near a mosque in Karbala, Iraq, in October 2003. "He was very sincere. He was very sympathetic. It was delightful meeting with him."

Bush met Orlando and others at a museum on base. "He expressed his condolences," she said. "To me, it happened so quickly. You are kind of at a loss for words. I told him that my husband believed in what he was doing and he supported the mission over there."

Roxanne Kaylor met the president at the White House on Memorial Day in 2003. Her son, Army 1st Lt. Jeffrey J. Kaylor, had been killed in a grenade attack in Iraq in April 2003. She described Bush as "gracious" but disengaged and unresponsive when pressed with uncomfortable questions. "He held my hand," she said. "I turned to him and I said, 'Jeff was a great person. It is too bad he had to die so early in life. I hope his death was not in vain.' He just stared at me. He said nothing. He just stared at me. He did not let go of my hand."

Kaylor has since become a rabid critic of the Iraq war and its shifting rationale. She said if she met Bush tomorrow, "I would tell him he is a liar and that he is no good for this country, and that he is killing great people. And for what reason? I don't know. Imagine if this happened to your own child. How would that make you feel?"

When Bush addressed soldiers at Fort Stewart, Ga., in June of this year, he wore a bracelet commemorating Staff Sgt. Michael G. Owen, 31, a psychological operations soldier killed by a roadside bomb in Karabilah, Iraq, in October 2004. The bracelet was given to Bush by Owen's wife, Crystal, in a private meeting at Fort Stewart just before Bush's speech.

"They put us in rooms and the president comes along and visits each one, kind of like a doctor's office," Owen said. "He came in and gave me a big hug. He said, 'Tell me about your husband, Mike.' He wanted to know everything about him. He was very genuine. He did get teary-eyed with me when I started crying. I told him about Mike and I and our life and how long we had been married. I pulled out a picture to show him who I was talking about."

Owen said she gave the president the bracelet and asked him to promise to wear it. "And he said, 'Do you trust me?' And I said, 'Yes, sir, you are my husband's commander in chief.'" Owen told the president she was worried that the troops might get pulled out of Iraq before the mission is complete. "I said, 'I'm very worried about the pressure you are getting. I don't think you can put a time on withdrawing troops. My biggest fear is that you would pull out too early and my husband's death would be in vain.'"

While Sheehan today wants to meet with the president again, some antiwar activists said they'd like just one meeting. Jane Bright's son, Army Sgt. Evan Ashcroft, was killed in July 2003 when his convoy came under attack north of Al Hawd, Iraq. He was part of the 101st Airborne Division, based in Fort Campbell, Ky. Bush visited Fort Campbell in March 2004 but Bright did not get a call to come to a private meeting.

Bright said thinking about meeting Bush gave her a feeling of "revulsion." But she would have gone. "When you lose a child, it is a journey. I would have gone just for the opportunity to ask him the questions I have been asking myself. Why did he create this conflict? Did he destroy Iraq just so Halliburton could rebuild it?"