The reality based community

[matt7531]

Originally Posted by narwhal

I thought he had already given condolences regarding her son, but she is insisting on a meeting with him about ending the war. Everyone knows damn well the President can't give an audience to everyone who wants one. I bet he gets 1M such requests per day. Probably a lot from other service people survivors, too.

I think the woman now represents the people who have lost loved ones in Iraq. This constituency has questions it wants answered, and this woman is their to ask him for them. She has become symbolic, not just another "face in the crowd" the prez does not have time for in between his exercise and nap schedule. The real reason he will not meet her is because he will be directly asked the questions he has avoided for years, as he hid behind his army of synchopants and co-conspirators.

[kerry]

Originally Posted by Botnst

Play it straight and I will.

It is a soldier's duty to follow lawful orders, period. Was he given lawful orders?

Bot

I take that question to mean: Has George Bush committed war crimes?

Anyone have any good links to pursue the answer to that question?

[matt7531]

Originally Posted by MTI

Actually this discussion is meaningless until you live in Cindy Sheehan's world.

Without a doubt the mostly poignantly profound thing said on this thread. This woman has given more to this country than anyone on this thread, that's for sure.

[Honus]

Originally Posted by narwhal

No, there wouldn't BE an argument if she hadn't exploited her son's death.

Botnst said it was cheap of Cindy Sheehan to use her son in her argument because he can’t speak for himself. His position assumes that Casey Sheehan would object to what his mother is
doing, but we don’t know that because he can’t speak for himself. The anti-Cindy position exploits her son to the same extent as the pro-Cindy position exploits him. Maybe she is misguided. Maybe she should suffer in silence, but I don’t think her son’s death automatically disqualifies her from being anti-war.

I hope I am not being disrespectful of Casey Sheehan. Thinking of him and his comrades dying over there makes me ill.

[matt7531]

Originally Posted by AustinsCE

Well, she can hate the war all she wants, but saying its a sham is dishonoring her son by saying he died, basically for nothing, or rather a lie. She cant have it both ways, either her son died for a cause or he didn't. If she disagrees with what her son did and thinks he's gullible, its her qualm with him, but since hes no longer around, she throws this fit and blames the Pres. Even if he lied, the son did believe it, and she is pissing on his beliefs. If it was honorable, then where's the problem? A lie is not honorable, thus, dying in the war is not, to her. My end thought is basically, she can nag on this all she wants but when she brings her son up, she discredits herself. All she is doing is using him as a tool in her own agenda, it isnt what he would want, honoring his memory, you know someone dies you do something good in their name sure, but his thoughts aren't being considered, just hers. He isnt here so saying that she thinks he was gullible is a non-issue, because as he left it, he believed in what he did, if he comes up and says, yep, i screwed up it all changes. Kinda like, she isn't in any place to stand up for her son if she is only arguing her own point. I think we can agree to disagree, I like that it hasn't turned to weird stuff like it does at times on here. i can see both sides, too, just that I'm on this side, and I don't like this woman.

What a bunch of absolute BS. The kid died in a war that is now shown to amount to nothing more than a criminal act against an essentially defenseless population. A war that did not have to happen, and now her kid is dead. Give me a friggin break. She has every right to do whatever she has a right to do in a democracy.

[MTI]

Yeah, what kind of mother raises an honor student, alter boy, Eagle Scout . . . shame on her . . .

[matt7531]

Originally Posted by Botnst

Play it straight and I will.

It is a soldier's duty to follow lawful orders, period. Was he given lawful orders?

Bot

Well if it isn't the old "Concentration Camp Guard" defense. No, he was not given a lawful order. This war is an illegal war, started by the use of lies and false pretenses in order to secure a congressional resolution. Waged by criminals, no soldier in this conflict has been given any "lawful order", and rather than "dishonor" her son, she honors his sacrifice by exercising the rights he thought he was dying for to protest his useless death. She earned that right.

[Honus]

Originally Posted by matt7531

Well if it isn't the old "Concentration Camp Guard" defense...

Hardly. Military orders run the gamut from the clearly appropriate to the unthinkable. Nazi soldiers who exterminated Jews were at one end of the spectrum. Even though W lied us into what appears to be an ill-advised war, the orders Casey Sheehan followed were well over to the other end of the spectrum. At some point between the extremes, there is a point where a soldier has to think long and hard about whether he has been given a lawful order. Soldiers like Casey Sheehan, IMHO, are nowhere near that line. I think it is unfair to them to suggest otherwise.

[peragro]

Originally Posted by koop

You don't know this because they took a poll do you?

No, not a poll. I travel pretty extensivly and often to various military installations. I've met 2 folks who work for DoD, both civilian, that don't support the president and the war - my neighbor and my co-worker. So, I guess I said what I said because of direct personal experience.
Everyone else, especially active duty, including those whove served at Gitmo, afghan and Iraq support what we are trying to do. Also, they're pretty much ticked at the media for the misrepresentation of what actually occurs in the war zone. Not to mention the feelings towards Kennedy, et. al. regarding prisoner care at Gitmo.

[kamil]

That woman is insane. I don't blame Bush for not talking to her because then all the mothers will get together and want to speak to him for something or another. (this is America and that will happen, everyone wants a piece of the action) Her son knew the consenquences of joining the military.

I didn't see her complaining when her son was signing the papers to enroll in the military and receiving some of the benefits. ie. school, tax breaks, some money. People always expect something for free but like I stated already..."he knew what he was getting himself into."

Lady should go home.

[Botnst]

Originally Posted by dculkin

How?She isn't using her son in her argument anymore than you are using him in yours.

You may not know this, but I had never heard of her son until she shook his lifeless body (metaphorically) on television.

[Botnst]

Originally Posted by matt7531

I think the woman now represents the people who have lost loved ones in Iraq. This constituency has questions it wants answered, and this woman is their to ask him for them. She has become symbolic, not just another "face in the crowd" the prez does not have time for in between his exercise and nap schedule. The real reason he will not meet her is because he will be directly asked the questions he has avoided for years, as he hid behind his army of synchopants and co-conspirators.

See that's the perception that she wants to convey.

Now prove your point. Show me the list of surviving family members that supports her and those that do not.

B

[Botnst]

Originally Posted by matt7531

Well if it isn't the old "Concentration Camp Guard" defense. No, he was not given a lawful order. This war is an illegal war, started by the use of lies and false pretenses in order to secure a congressional resolution. Waged by criminals, no soldier in this conflict has been given any "lawful order", and rather than "dishonor" her son, she honors his sacrifice by exercising the rights he thought he was dying for to protest his useless death. She earned that right.

Show me where the orders were unlawful.

Did Congress empower the president? Yes?

If Congress gives Georgie-boy the power to wage war, it is a legal war.

B

[Botnst]

Originally Posted by MTI

Yeah, what kind of mother raises an honor student, alter boy, Eagle Scout . . . shame on her . . .

I assumed she raised her boy to think independently, don't you?

[Honus]

Originally Posted by Botnst

You may not know this, but I had never heard of her son until she shook his lifeless body (metaphorically) on television.

And I understood you and narwhal to be saying that she shouldn't have done that. I also thought that you both believe that she inappropriately exploited her dead son. If that was your intent, then my point stands. We will never know what her son would think of her protest. Claims that she dishonors him are therefore speculative, IMHO.

The more I think about it, the more I think her protest is an appropriate reaction to her son's death, given her understanding of why the war started. It is unfortunate to have Americans complaining about a war while people are fighting and dying in Iraq, but what is the alternative? Wait until it's over and then say, by the way, I don't think that war was such a good idea?

I don't think Bush is in a position to say that the mother of a dead soldier is wrong for not supporting his war.