Lebenz is laughing his ass off right now because of the reaction he is getting. I don't think Kirk Vining would go as far as Traci does attempting to belittle people who choose to serve their country.

Do you think a person with Traci's opinions would even think about saying what he thinks in front of a real human? I don't think so.

Doesn't have to, not saying a word sometimes speaks volumes.

__________________
2006 CL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2026 Genesis GV70
2007 Tiara 3200

Personally, in my heart the reason I fought was for the rights of flag burning hippies I have a deep respect for freedom . I know that may be hard to grasp but I applaud protesters even though I think that they are knuckleheads and am more than willing to fight and die so they can be knuckleheads.

It may seem irrational and stupid but if if I enjoyed killing I would have gone infantry instead of commo.

Believe in yourself and all that is natural, not goverment, not religion, not possesions, those all examples of manmade dilusions that divide people and encourage conflict.

I think what Lennon was saying is that goverments create wars, religion seperates cultures, and possessions inspire greed and envy. If all of these could be abolished, humanity would have nothing to fight over and peace and love would reign. Yea right, not gonna happen.

My solution is a kinda like the Federation from Star Trek. One world goverment, eliminate nationalistic goals, and make war obsolete. Distribute the worlds resources equally, eliminate poverty, enable mankind to focus it's priorities on morale and intellectual objectives.

Sounds more feasable than "Imagine", but not likely in our lifetimes. However, I do believe that if civilization is to survive for another millenium, we had better start achieving some of those goals. We won't survive as a species the way things are going.

Unless the conflict you're fighting is an effort to defend the nation's borders, airspace, or territorial waters, how is it even remotely connected to some abstract set of rights or subjective freedoms?

I understand completly, my father was in the Navy, as was my grandfather. I came within an inch of following them. One of my good friends is on his way to the Marines. I know quite a few people who were in various services and respect each and every one of them for it. I just recently met a very old guy who was on Iwo Jima, he was a Marine and some of the stuff he went through was incredible. He has 4 purple hearts, a silver star, and a bunch of other metals. He got one of those purple hearts bringing the flag that they raised up to the mountain. A shell blew up right near him and nearly killed him, but he got the flag to the top of the mountain, regardless of his wounds. A true American hero, Semper Fi!

His budy the Colonol I want to meet, frankly talking to his budy would be like speaking to a living legend. He was on the Bock Car, on the fatefull mission over Japan. I didn't think any of those guys were still alive.

It seems the people that have a deep respect and appreciation of freedom are willing to put their money where there mouth is, so to speak.

I sleep very well at night knowing the quality of brave men and women that protect out shores. I also thank them for protecting freedom so we can do things like debate on this forum.

Zeitgeist the world just isn't as black and white as that.

__________________
2006 CL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2026 Genesis GV70
2007 Tiara 3200

First hero worship or “icons” is a facade for the weak minded and I’m pretty sure you know it.
Second, you appear to be suggesting that for you, independent thought means naught when placed next to peer pressure and convenience. That implies your decision process comes down to the “what’s in it for me?” justification. Is that correct? Not that that is unusual.

So far Jeff is the only one asserting moral superiority in this thread, and he stupidly fumbled it as a tool of attack. Yet if you find murder, let alone mass murder to fall under the category of an arbitrary choice, well, that is a reflection of your values. There is no “that which we believe to be correct” at all because you pointed out that above, self-interest, your “what can I live with” is all that matters. I agree that is a common ploy of justification used to camouflage dismissal. But it is still a ploy and nothing else.

Thousands of years ago the pyramids of Egypt were built by slaves and their frequently crushed bodies were literally used as mortar for the massive stonework. I’m sure some thought there was a moral value to the process, perhaps appeasing the gods and so forth. The pyramids themselves were nothing other than a testament to death employed as an exercise in vanity for the Pharos. You are saying that the only thing that has changed is that we don’t use slaves.

I’m going to return to my original point. If someone views murder as a source of joy, they are sick in the head. Period.

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...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

Okay then, your mother, father, wife and dog are all enemies of the state. Now do your duity.

__________________
...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

Gosh another attack this more facile than the last. Yer on a roll!

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...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

Show me the order then and we can talk.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

You are the one who said the only criteria is that they be enemies. Your previous comment didn't require any question, verification or independent decision making process. Going to stick to that assertion?

So they are enemies.

BTW, I hope you realize this is said as illustration only. I don't want you to kill anyone.

__________________
...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

Sorry, I didn't cross the "T"s and dot the "I"s. However, if my parents or wife start shooting at me or trying to cause me harm, you bet I will shoot back to kill. The only reason I didn't shoot back at my GF when she shot at me was that I wasn't packing at the time.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Ah, so you need not only justification but direct observation of events to make a decision. And in the case of your GF even that wasn't sufficient. I rest my case.

__________________
...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

If you think that was an attack, all of my statements are correct.

I have read the first 10 or so posts on this thread, and identify this post with spin that maybe only a lawyer could appreciate.

I don't think the cherry-picked comments of the marine express fun and joy in murder. Rather, I interpret the serviceman as being psyched at the possibility of saving fellow Americans (and possibly himself), by gaining an advantage in a combative situation. Furthermore, your use of the term murder is ludicrous.

Why does the reason we are over there have to take over the point of this thread? The soldier who made the comment ya'll find so offensive doesn't have a choice--he has only a job to do, and it sounds like the guy did a hell of a job.

I wonder if you guys leave your comfy homes and cabins and ever discourse in person with guys like the one quoted in the article to find out what they meant, and tell them your opinions?