Now I'm really confused!! - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmac2012 · #31 06-30-2006, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KylePavao

Terrorism is terrorism. The intentional destruction of civilian targets to further some sort of agenda is completely uncalled for. How does blowing up busloads of children further anything? Agreed, hands are bloody on both sides, but Israel has been fighting these types since 1948. The Jews just didn't come back from Europe and take the place: when the British withdrew from their mandate of Palestine, the UN split the area into Arab and Jewish states. Then the Israelis fought wars defending the land the an international governing body had given them, and won! When the allies beat the Germans in 1945, they didn't go on blowing up busloads of children for the next sixty years...its called defeat. The Arabs have had several of them at the hands of a smaller force, even when they attacked from all sides. Both sides need to stop the violence, because retaliation by the other is inevitable, and seen as warranted by the members of each side. Until this happes, it'll be another 58 years of nonstop violence, mostly against those who have nothing to do with it.

Israel gained a lot of its territory through terrorism. What should the statute of limitations be on that? You also said: "You cannot let terrorists have any victory. Period." Could be the Palestinians believe the Jews were terrorists first and don't want them to have any victory, which they pretty much have, de facto.

The post WW2 Germans might have started blowing up busses if they noticed that Americans and Brits were slowly pushing them off the best parts of Germany and setting up their own communities.

The Palestinians are hot-headed asses, I'll admit, but what would you have them do? People who claim that over-population is a leftist myth might consider that Israel/Palestine is a clear example of too many people and not enough land. The Jews are gradually exhausting their water supply. The dead sea is vanishing, and with it will go a sizable tourist trade.

cmac2012 · #32 06-30-2006, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

You have two neighboring families, one is civil, polite, law abiding but not warm. Your other neighbor is a dysfunctional family that can't even keep its own house in repair and worse, throws rocks through your windows.

Again, you're looking at more recent history. Go back to the 30s and 40s and the Jews were throwing some pretty serious "rocks" through Palestinian windows. Now that the Jews have got a lot of the territory they wanted, the Palestinians are throwing the rocks. Suppose the PA got the upper hand again. Would the Jews be so "civil and polite" then?

And what is so civil and polite about building their wall/fence in such a way to de facto annex new territory, cutting Palestinian farmers off from their farmland in many cases?

Botnst · #33 06-30-2006, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Again, you're looking at more recent history. Go back to the 30s and 40s and the Jews were throwing some pretty serious "rocks" through Palestinian windows. Now that the Jews have got a lot of the territory they wanted, the Palestinians are throwing the rocks. Suppose the PA got the upper hand again. Would the Jews be so "civil and polite" then?

And what is so civil and polite about building their wall/fence in such a way to de facto annex new territory, cutting Palestinian farmers off from their farmland in many cases?

Again, you assume that which you do not know.

Where in the preceding allegory do you see a date stamp?

How do you label the various households?

You imposed your views on the allegory.

Carleton Hughes · #34 06-30-2006, 08:33 AM

I got 2 words for this silly contretemps,shin bet

cmac2012 · #35 06-30-2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Again, you assume that which you do not know.

Where in the preceding allegory do you see a date stamp?

How do you label the various households?

You imposed your views on the allegory.

Much of what you claim I don't know is known to me with the same degree of "certainty" that much of the history you read is known to you. I wasn't in Israel/Palestine in the 40s, or anywhere else for that matter, mucho muy perdonnes.

cmac2012 · #36 06-30-2006, 10:55 AM

I believe destroying civilian infrastructure is a war crime, sorta like the water stations we destroyed in Gulf War 1.

GAZA POWER PLANT HIT BY ISRAELI AIRSTRIKE IS INSURED BY US AGENCY (Boston Globe)

Author(s): Farah Stockman, Globe Staff Date: June 29, 2006 Page: A22 Section: National/Foreign

WASHINGTON The Palestinian power plant bombed by Israeli forces Tuesday is insured by a US government agency, and US officials say they expect American funds to be used to pay for the damage.

The destruction of the 140-megawatt reactor, the only one in the Gaza Strip, threatens to create a humanitarian disaster because the plant supplies electricity to two-thirds of Gaza's 1.3 million residents and operates pumps that provide water supplies. But paying a claim on the plant, which was insured for $48 million, could prove problematic for the United States, which cut off funding for all infrastructure projects in the Palestinian territories after the militant group Hamas won legislative elections in January.

Administration officials said the restrictions on working with a Hamas-led government could further complicate the repair of the electric facility, which could take weeks, if not months, to fix because of the escalating violence in Gaza.

The bombing of the plant could become a lasting problem for the Bush administration, which is appealing for an end to the showdown between Israelis and Palestinians in Gaza.

Israeli warplanes hit the power plant two days after Palestinian militants attacked an Israeli Army unit, killing two soldiers and taking another one hostage. Israeli forces responded yesterday by entering the Gaza Strip for the first time since Israel's historic pullout from the territory nine months ago, bombing the plant and three bridges.

The power plant cost about $150 million and took more than five years to build.

Plans for it began in 1999, when two private investors the now-defunct Enron Corp. and a Palestinian-born construction mogul, Said Khoury laid down the blueprint for making the Palestinian territories less reliant on buying electricity from Israel.

The project faltered when violence broke out in Gaza in 2000 and when Enron collapsed into bankruptcy, but Khoury continued to push forward. His construction company's US subsidiary, Connecticut-based Morganti Group, bought out Enron's stake in the plant.

In 2002, the plant began operating, becoming the first such facility regulated by the Palestinian Energy Authority. In 2004, it reached full commercial capacity and its owners were able to purchase $48 million in "political risk" insurance from the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, an arm of the US government that provides American businesses with financing abroad and promotes US interests in emerging markets.

The US Investment Corporation set up in 1971 with US taxpayer funds had been supportive of the project from the beginning, arranging the first meeting between investors for the plant, according to the Bloomberg news service.

Few commercial insurance companies insure such projects against political violence, but the US Investment Corporation does so to encourage development in emerging markets, according to Lawrence Spinelli, a spokesman for the Investment Corporation.

The insurance that Morganti purchased covers "political violence," which includes "wars, acts of terrorism, things like that," Spinelli said. To be paid for the damage, the company must file a claim, and the Investment Corporation must determine whether the claim is covered by the policy, Spinelli said.

The corporation raises its reserve funds through insurance premiums and other charges to its clients, but its funds are kept in the US Treasury and are controlled by Congress.

That could be a problem for those who want to see the power plant swiftly rebuilt.

After the election of Hamas in January, a host of congressmen introduced bills designed to freeze US assistance to the Palestinian territories to prevent any financial benefit from reaching Hamas, designated as a terrorist organization. In April, the State Department announced it would cut off all planned funding for infrastructure in Gaza and the West Bank.

But advocates for Palestinians say that the plant must be repaired, even if the US government is forced to pay for it.

"If you take out two-thirds of the power in a place like Gaza, and if this is the source of electricity that powers pumps for water, you may have a major crisis on your hand in short order," said Ed Abington, a former consultant to the Palestinian Authority.

mikemover · #37 06-30-2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I mentioned this one time before but do not recall getting a response so I’ll try again.

In the 1967 war, Egypt lost the Sini to Israel. Fast forward to the 70’s and the camp David accords, Egypt agreed to peace with Israel and in return, Egypt got their land back.

The way I see it, this shows that at least at the time, Israel will go to quite some length to sue for peace. My guess is that the Israelis are as sick and tired of this crap as the Palestinians are. The Palestinians want a country to call their own. Yet they have never made the effort that Egypt has made. Why? If the Palestinians would stand down and say, ok, if we agree to stop this and lets say in two years no one dies, no one gets blown up … can we have our land? I am guessing the response would be yes, you can. Egypt did it, why not the Palestinians? Could it be that the ones doing the fighting do not really want peace? Could it be that they want Israel gone and this has nothing to do with a Palestinian home land? The blue print has been there for close to 30 years but no one has tried to use it.

Those in charge on the PLO side in my opinion do not want peace. War is their job and their hobby.

I agree completely.

Mike

aklim · #38 06-30-2006, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GottaDiesel

Good point. Don't taunt the bully.

I don't know what to say at this point. I just think the whole thing is stupid and wish we (US) would just keep the hell away from the region and concentrate on educating and enriching our OWN people. That is really the only reason I get so p'ed off about it. Oh well.

Firstly, you are right partly. Don't go disturbing someone bigger than you. I don't see the "bully" part of the equation. You go disturbing someone and he comes back and beats the hell out of you, you have no sympathy from me. Sorry, you tunnel into my area, kill my soldiers, take a hostage and demand this, that or the other? If you broke into my house, killed a kid of mine, kidnapped another, I won't just burn down your house. I'll gut your entire family in front of you before I break your spine so you will have no use of your arms and legs but can stay alive to know what I did to you.

Look around. Look at the quality of the kids we have and tell me that money and effort will gain anything. We are spending more money per kid than others and receieving less results. Something I read in some paper while waiting for the wife in kollege. That seems to be the easy answer. Toss more money and effort at it and you get better results. The kids are NOT motivated. Japanese kids have been known to take the fast way down a high building because of poor grades or not so good grades. Not saying we should have that. However, our kids are the least motivated. Look at the High Skool pregnancies that cause girls to drop out. Look at the lack of motivation of a large proportion of the kids there. WTF? Why are we keeping them there? Get rid of them and let those that want to learn, use the resources.

Why are they that unmovitated? Because there is no consequence of failure. Everythign will be taken care of. This may be why we are so dedicated to manufacturing. Because it will give those who cannot or will not make it, scholastic wise to have a job. Why are we feeding a dying person and giving him the most medical care to keep him alive 1 more day? Our manufacturing is not the cheapest or anything anymore. We are getting eaten out alive from Asia where labor is cheaper. So, anything we can do, they can do and cheaper. We need to move on to something else that they cannot do yet. That means doing better in the Math, Sciences and Language. However, as they say, you can bring the horse to water but cannot make a horse drink. IMO, your assessment would be right as far as spending money on our kids IF they were motivated AND lack the facilities. However, this is like a person telling me that if we keep dumping more money into a business venture we will get better results when I see that the rest of the people in his situation are doing much better. A hard sell at best.

aklim · #39 06-30-2006, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GottaDiesel

I give up, which is which? I assume the Jews are the ones with the rocks (weapons) and the Palestinians are the ones that are law abiding -- they don't destroys homes and steal land...

Just to clear it up.

Who started this episode?

mikemover · #40 06-30-2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I believe destroying civilian infrastructure is a war crime, sorta like the water stations we destroyed in Gulf War 1.

GAZA POWER PLANT HIT BY ISRAELI AIRSTRIKE IS INSURED BY US AGENCY (Boston Globe)......

......But advocates for Palestinians say that the plant must be repaired, even if the US government is forced to pay for it.

"If you take out two-thirds of the power in a place like Gaza, and if this is the source of electricity that powers pumps for water, you may have a major crisis on your hand in short order," said Ed Abington, a former consultant to the Palestinian Authority.

Perhaps they should have thought of that possibility before they attacked Israeli soldiers?????.......

By now, the Palestinians should KNOW that they are going to get their asses handed to them EVERY time.... Yet they continue to fight instead of negotiate, and they continue to do astoundingly stupid things, such as electing members of one of the world's foremost terrorist groups to run their government!

Both sides share a LOT of guilt in this situation, but the Palestinians in particular just can't seem to stop shooting themselves in the foot...Repeatedly. It's hard to keep feeling sorry for people who perpetually refuse to abandon such absurd and counterproductive actions.

Mike

aklim · #41 06-30-2006, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

Perhaps they should have thought of that possibility before they attacked Israeli soldiers?????.......

By now, the Palestinians should KNOW that they are going to get their asses handed to them EVERY time.... Yet they continue to fight instead of negotiate, and they continue to do astoundingly stupid things, such as electing members of one of the world's foremost terrorist groups to run their government!

Both sides share a LOT of guilt in this situation, but the Palestinians in particular just can't seem to stop shooting themselves in the foot...Repeatedly. It's hard to keep feeling sorry for people who perpetually refuse to abandon such absurd and counterproductive actions.

Mike

In the past, taking a hostage worked. Too bad we don't do the same thing with hostage takers. They thought it would work again. Guess not.

cmac2012 · #42 06-30-2006, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Firstly, you are right partly. Don't go disturbing someone bigger than you. I don't see the "bully" part of the equation. You go disturbing someone and he comes back and beats the hell out of you, you have no sympathy from me. Sorry, you tunnel into my area, kill my soldiers, take a hostage and demand this, that or the other? If you broke into my house, killed a kid of mine, kidnapped another, I won't just burn down your house. I'll gut your entire family in front of you before I break your spine so you will have no use of your arms and legs but can stay alive to know what I did to you.

Funny thing, the Jews were the original disturbers in this equation, in modern times anyway. They came into Palestine acting like they were the rightful owners and proceeded to successfully, if brutally, evict many residents. The evictees have not taken kindly to it. I don't like their tactics either, but I don't buy the "Jews as long suffering peace aspirants" stuff.

cmac2012 · #43 06-30-2006, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

Perhaps they should have thought of that possibility before they attacked Israeli soldiers?????.......

By now, the Palestinians should KNOW that they are going to get their asses handed to them EVERY time.... Yet they continue to fight instead of negotiate, and they continue to do astoundingly stupid things, such as electing members of one of the world's foremost terrorist groups to run their government!

Both sides share a LOT of guilt in this situation, but the Palestinians in particular just can't seem to stop shooting themselves in the foot...Repeatedly. It's hard to keep feeling sorry for people who perpetually refuse to abandon such absurd and counterproductive actions.

However you sift it out, the Jews have bought themselves a lifetime of anguish and grief with their Zionist tactics. Could maybe have migrated into Palestine/Israel a bit more smoothly, w/o the obsession of having an ethnically cleansed nation. As ye sow....

mikemover · #44 06-30-2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

However you sift it out, the Jews have bought themselves a lifetime of anguish and grief with their Zionist tactics. Could maybe have migrated into Palestine/Israel a bit more smoothly, w/o the obsession of having an ethnically cleansed nation. As ye sow....

We've been down this street several times.

How 'bout we save everyone a lot of time and irritation, and just agree to disagree on the whole "who started it" thing....

Mike

cmac2012 · #45 06-30-2006, 12:47 PM

C'mon, stand up and fight like a man, watch out, here it comes.

They're both fanatical hotheads, IMO, both factions, that is. Both sides insist they are the worthy party in this argument. I think the mark of a wise person or society, one mark anyway, would be an ability to avoid or solve such dilemmas. The Jews have something to learn here, as do the Palestinians.