Why is giving important? - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #46 07-21-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuan

That's just so contradictory.

1) Everyone is selfish
2) We give to get something
3) We know (1) to be true

Therefore we know that giving gets us nothing

We give a donation to the X foundation because we want that nice feeling of doing something good. Just like I want the nice feeling of getting laid by a female so I hire a hooker. She doesn't work for free and gets paid. I get a laid feeling by spending money. Ordinarily, I wouldn't give her a dime. However, because I want to get laid by her, I give her money. So, I want that feeling that I did something good, I dump a bunch of cash to a charity. They get something and I get something. That good feeling isn't free. Am I selfish? You bet. However, I have needs that I cannot meet myself. So, I give you something and get something in return. If I could meet my own needs, I wouldn't give you a thing.

Maroon 300D · #47 07-21-2006, 01:29 PM

I don't think the feeling you get from a prostitute is something you can compare with the feeling you get from giving something to someone in good faith.

You hire a hooker to take care of a selfish need; giving, assuming it's done sincerely, satisfies your desire to not be selfish.

Giving can be done cynically, but when it's done sincerely it is selfless, not selfish.

aklim · #48 07-21-2006, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maroon 300D

You hire a hooker to take care of a selfish need;

giving, assuming it's done sincerely, satisfies your desire to not be selfish.

No dispute here.

OK. Here is where we differ. If it satisfies a desire not to be selfish, you are still giving money to satisfy a desire. So, how is it selfless? As I understand it, selfless is to do something for NOTHING.

raymr · #49 07-21-2006, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

No dispute here.

OK. Here is where we differ. If it satisfies a desire not to be selfish, you are still giving money to satisfy a desire. So, how is it selfless? As I understand it, selfless is to do something for NOTHING.

So if I give or share something, and feel good about it, thats selfish? So next time I make a donation, I'll be sure to do it in a grumpy manner so nobody thinks I'm fulfilling some desire.

I shared you viewpoint once, that ulterior motives are the sole drivers of everything we do. In fact, I had one of those big round buttons hanging in my car that aptly displayed my philosophy. It read "Everybody Has A Price". I tossed it away when I finally grew up.

kerry · #50 07-21-2006, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

We are all selfish. We do this to get that. Nobody gives something for nothing. Either you get something back or you get a warm feeling in your tummy or whatever. You are paid. Perhaps in a different coin but you are still paid. What you are hoping for is Utopia. Not in this life.

A person who has learned to enjoy unselfish pleasures in addition to the enjoyment of selfish pleasures (which seems to come naturally) has a more complex character which is more aesthetically pleasing.

In evolutionary terms humans have the ability to detect hunting partners who can be counted upon to help in a pinch. Selfish hunting partners tended to be de-selected naturally.

Kuan · #51 07-21-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

We give a donation to the X foundation because we want that nice feeling of doing something good. Just like I want the nice feeling of getting laid by a female so I hire a hooker. She doesn't work for free and gets paid. I get a laid feeling by spending money. Ordinarily, I wouldn't give her a dime. However, because I want to get laid by her, I give her money. So, I want that feeling that I did something good, I dump a bunch of cash to a charity. They get something and I get something. That good feeling isn't free. Am I selfish? You bet. However, I have needs that I cannot meet myself. So, I give you something and get something in return. If I could meet my own needs, I wouldn't give you a thing.

Then by definition you're giving something to yourself. You don't need a charity.

aklim · #52 07-21-2006, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

So if I give or share something, and feel good about it, thats selfish? So next time I make a donation, I'll be sure to do it in a grumpy manner so nobody thinks I'm fulfilling some desire.

I shared you viewpoint once, that ulterior motives are the sole drivers of everything we do. In fact, I had one of those big round buttons hanging in my car that aptly displayed my philosophy. It read "Everybody Has A Price". I tossed it away when I finally grew up.

Well, If you are doing this to get that, how is that any less selfish than you going to work? You are not going to work to help the boss. You are doing it to help yourself. If you are making a donation and you get something out if it, how is that unselfish? I donate my stuff to Goodwill. Do I really care about the people and organization? Not a whit. It lets me write off stuff on my taxes. So, I am getting paid in a different coin is all. Say I mow the grass for my neighbour. Maybe in the future, he will do something for me too. Isn't that getting paid in a different coin as opposed to him paying me $20? To be truely doing something for unselfish reasons, you need to be doing it just because and not because you are getting something in return, be it a tax deduction, in leiu of a favor in the future or a pat on your back. Once again with the hooker. She gives me a good sensation so I pay her. I am getting something for my money. It is a transaction. Plain and simple.

raymr · #53 07-21-2006, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Well, If you are doing this to get that, how is that any less selfish than you going to work? You are not going to work to help the boss. You are doing it to help yourself. If you are making a donation and you get something out if it, how is that unselfish? I donate my stuff to Goodwill. Do I really care about the people and organization? Not a whit. It lets me write off stuff on my taxes. So, I am getting paid in a different coin is all. Say I mow the grass for my neighbour. Maybe in the future, he will do something for me too. Isn't that getting paid in a different coin as opposed to him paying me $20? To be truely doing something for unselfish reasons, you need to be doing it just because and not because you are getting something in return, be it a tax deduction, in leiu of a favor in the future or a pat on your back. Once again with the hooker. She gives me a good sensation so I pay her. I am getting something for my money. It is a transaction. Plain and simple.

Do you really think of the tax deduction when you give your old clothes away? Wow.

aklim · #54 07-21-2006, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

Do you really think of the tax deduction when you give your old clothes away? Wow.

Of course. If I don't want them anymore (put on or lost weight, don't like the color, came from an ex gf, etc etc) and they are in wearable condition, I do. If they are not in wearable condition, I turn them into rags. If I bundle them to the Salvation Army or Goodwill, it takes my time and fuel, etc, etc. Instead of turning a good shirt into a rag or dumping it in a trash can, I take an action that benifits me and also benifits them. Old clothes, things I no longer use, etc, etc are all done for a tax break.

If I toss it away, nobody benifits. If I take the trouble to bring it there and I get a benifit, what is the issue? I never claimed to be a saint and do something for no gain. Besides, it is not like they don't get a benifit out of it. So it is a win-win situation. I am not adverse to letting someone also win. After all, if they cannot win, why would they do it. Better that both of us win than nobody wins.

Mr.Kenny · #55 07-22-2006, 12:47 PM

Can you give in secret? Where the recipient has no idea where the gift or help came from? Just Purely unselfish giving?
When it actually costs you something, not just giving leftovers, hand-me-downs and there will be no personal gain or recognition?
Just because helping and giving is the right thing to do?

What kind of gain is there in shoveling snow or mowing a lawn for an elderly or infirm person?.... Lots of people do this kind of kindness. Not for gain, but because it is just the right thing to do.

Its obvious not all of us think the same way about motives, & how to treat our fellow brothers & sisters.

aklim · #56 07-22-2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Kenny

Can you give in secret? Where the recipient has no idea where the gift or help came from? Just Purely unselfish giving?
When it actually costs you something, not just giving leftovers, hand-me-downs and there will be no personal gain or recognition?
Just because helping and giving is the right thing to do?

What kind of gain is there in shoveling snow or mowing a lawn for an elderly or infirm person?.... Lots of people do this kind of kindness. Not for gain, but because it is just the right thing to do.

Its obvious not all of us think the same way about motives, & how to treat our fellow brothers & sisters.

OK. If I am helping the lady up the street shovel snow because she is hot and I hope she will be "nice" to me, it is as selfish as if you are doing it because you get a nice warm feeling of doing it. The reason is you are doing it because you are getting something back. In a hooker, you are getting a laid feeling you cannot get with your hand and in the case of the elderly person, you are getting a good feeling that you are helping someone who needs it. Either way, you are getting a return for your investment of work. Therefore there is no true alturism as the word goes.

raymr · #57 07-22-2006, 03:25 PM

Feeling good about doing something is often just a side benefit and not the goal, as you often use sex in your analogies. Hopefully you see the distinction between having sex with a hooker, and shoveling granny's driveway. Paying for physical sensations is not the same as assisting someone in need. Sorry.

I'll go out in a limb here and guess that you were never involved with Scouting.

aklim · #58 07-22-2006, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

Feeling good about doing something is often just a side benefit and not the goal, as you often use sex in your analogies. Hopefully you see the distinction between having sex with a hooker, and shoveling granny's driveway. Paying for physical sensations is not the same as assisting someone in need. Sorry.

I'll go out in a limb here and guess that you were never involved with Scouting.

Same principle to me. In any case, how do you know it is a side benifit and not the goal? I find it easier to believe, based on what I see of the world, that people do what they do for a reason and if someone benifits, so much the better as opposed to them getting a side benifit. However, in any case, you do know the side benifit is coming so the point is that you will be paid in a different coin but still paid. Hence a good deed is not done just because. It is done because you know that you will get paid. Just like I go to work. I do it because I am fairly certain I will get paid. At work, I get paid in cash. With a hooker, I get a good sensation. With grandma, I get a good feeling that I did something for someone in need. Therefore, I don't believe that a good deed is really done for absolutely nothing. IMO it is done for payment. The only question is what coin the payment will come to you in.

Guess your limb broke and you fell. I was involved in Scouting way back when I was in grade skool. Yes, I too was taught all those high falutin ideals but I saw the world and realized it was an ugly place. As such, I adjusted my ideals to what I see happen when you do this or that as opposed to doing something in the hopes that that will happen.

raymr · #59 07-22-2006, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Same principle to me. In any case, how do you know it is a side benifit and not the goal? I find it easier to believe, based on what I see of the world, that people do what they do for a reason and if someone benifits, so much the better as opposed to them getting a side benifit. However, in any case, you do know the side benifit is coming so the point is that you will be paid in a different coin but still paid. Hence a good deed is not done just because. It is done because you know that you will get paid. Just like I go to work. I do it because I am fairly certain I will get paid. At work, I get paid in cash. With a hooker, I get a good sensation. With grandma, I get a good feeling that I did something for someone in need. Therefore, I don't believe that a good deed is really done for absolutely nothing. IMO it is done for payment. The only question is what coin the payment will come to you in.

Guess your limb broke and you fell. I was involved in Scouting way back when I was in grade skool. Yes, I too was taught all those high falutin ideals but I saw the world and realized it was an ugly place. As such, I adjusted my ideals to what I see happen when you do this or that as opposed to doing something in the hopes that that will happen.

Well walking the dog is a responsibility and obligation, and if you feel good about doing it so much the better. It isn't in and of itself a reward, although it makes Fido happy. So some people think its important to extend a hand outside of their little bubble when they can. Whether that gives them joy or not is inconsequential. The plain fact is - they do it. And they do it in quiet little ways that don't attract attention, for attention would be an ego satisfaction thing.

Warren Buffet just gave away 40 billion bucks to charities. For that amount of money, he could have had his name written on the moon for the universe to see. He will never see $40 billion in reciprocal payback or favors. Why did he do it?

aklim · #60 07-23-2006, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

Well walking the dog is a responsibility and obligation, and if you feel good about doing it so much the better. It isn't in and of itself a reward, although it makes Fido happy. So some people think its important to extend a hand outside of their little bubble when they can. Whether that gives them joy or not is inconsequential. The plain fact is - they do it. And they do it in quiet little ways that don't attract attention, for attention would be an ego satisfaction thing.

Warren Buffet just gave away 40 billion bucks to charities. For that amount of money, he could have had his name written on the moon for the universe to see. He will never see $40 billion in reciprocal payback or favors. Why did he do it?

Yes, what of it? Giving to charity is NOT an obligation like walking the dog. Whether it gives a person joy to extend a helping hand is inconsequential to certain questions. However, to the question of whether they get repayment, it is important.

If Warren Buffet had given 40 bil to charities in a quiet way that doesn't attract attention, how did you know about it? He will not see the money back in payback or favors. However, as I ahve said before, he gets paid back in a different coin. You know of it and probably admire him for it. IOW, he has bought recognition and admiration with his 40 bil. Is it worth it to me? Absoultely not. To him, probably. Some people use their money to buy favors, others buy admiration and recognition and others buy property.

I am not against charities or giving. However, if you want to accuse people of alturism, you had best make sure they are not getting paid in ANY way, shape or form otherwise it is not truely alturistic. As they said in OJ's case "If it doesn't fit, you must acquit." You have accused the human race of alturism and it doesn't fit as long as they get a payback in ANY form. Payback is not limited to repayment of the money, favors, sex, etc, etc.