Rush Limbaugh - Page 20 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Medmech · #**286** 10-13-2007, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Soldiering is a brutal line of work. A mistake by a noncom in action can mean death to scores of people. A mistake by a general officer can mean hundreds or thousands dead. A mistake by a civilian leader can be far, far worse. But so can failure to act result in even more death, destruction, loss and misery. The American military trains it's people to take risk and responsibility at the lowest level of decision. This results in a very dynamic, responsive force. It can also result in awful mistakes. Placing decision-making power into the hands of 20-somethings is a huge risk, especially given the available ordnance. It's a tough balance.

B

Right, to summarize that all actions start with mistakes its good training and discipline that keeps the process moving toward the intended net result.

Nothing goes as planned............ever.

peragro · #**287** 10-13-2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

My fellow Jew, Peragro, didn't suggest in any way that villages were not destroyed: He said Arnett made-up that infamous line about destroying it to save it.

I was going to say exactly that, but you beat me to it.

As long as we're on the subject. The phrase "we had to destroy the village in order to save it" is one of the favorite lines used by progressives to illustrate US senseless brutality. In fact, my non-jewish friend Cmacadoodledoo has done so here on occasion. It's a good example of how anti-US soldier propaganda takes hold and never lets go.

The quote came from the town Ban Tre which was destroyed by the North Vietnamese. Interviews with American servicemen after the destruction resulted in quotes such as "it's a shame the town was destroyed". Peter Arnett came up with the quote as he did with the fabrications in the Tailwind story later on and then again in Iraq when he was working for the Iraqi army.

cmac2012 · #**288** 10-13-2007, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

My fellow Jew, Peragro, didn't suggest in any way that villages were not destroyed: He said Arnett made-up that infamous line about destroying it to save it.

And this was based on what? I'm 99% certain that I saw a US serviceman make that remark before a camera at the time. I'm trying to find it.

Trying to pin the blame on Arnett smacks of dissembling, like it was all made up.

cmac2012 · #**289** 10-13-2007, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Soldiering is a brutal line of work. A mistake by a noncom in action can mean death to scores of people. A mistake by a general officer can mean hundreds or thousands dead. A mistake by a civilian leader can be far, far worse. But so can failure to act result in even more death, destruction, loss and misery. The American military trains it's people to take risk and responsibility at the lowest level of decision. This results in a very dynamic, responsive force. It can also result in awful mistakes. Placing decision-making power into the hands of 20-somethings is a huge risk, especially given the available ordnance. It's a tough balance.

Compare the American military's philosophy with a top-down military, say the USSR. There is no question that the USSR destroyed the German army in WWII (the Wermacht at that time was also strictly top-down). The Soviet army was victorious but at a staggering cost of life and limb. The WWII Wermacht was probably the finest army of it's kind ever to be seen on the planet. In comparison, the allied forces were quite stingy in their attitudes toward soldier's lives and living conditions. The Germans (and Soviets and Imperial Japanese) command interpreted that as weakness and even cowardice in the face of war. And so does Bin Laden.

Let them and OBL interpret as they will. They were/are wrong. The refusal of many in our nation to participate in the war in Nam is also interpreted as weakness, as you might imagine, I don't see it that way.

Reckless sacrifice of life might yield short term gain but it's a MF longterm. Massive military might is good for destroying powerful armies but at persuading a body of people to see things another way, or to cooperate with the invader, it's a bit of a bust.

I can well understand the wish of troops in Somalia at the time to give the bastids a serious whooping. It's hard to imagine any resolution to that though. How many million would you have to kill to make a dent in assbackwards people?

cmac2012 · #**290** 10-13-2007, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

The quote came from the town Ban Tre which was destroyed by the North Vietnamese. Interviews with American servicemen after the destruction resulted in quotes such as "it's a shame the town was destroyed". Peter Arnett came up with the quote as he did with the fabrications in the Tailwind story later on and then again in Iraq when he was working for the Iraqi army.

Methinks the good gentleman for Pergo-ville is talking through his hat.

peragro · #**291** 10-13-2007, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Methinks the good gentleman for Pergo-ville is talking through his hat.

Ben Tre

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Bến Tre pronunciation (help·info) or Kampong Russey in Khmer is a town in the Mekong Delta area of southern Vietnam. It is the capital of Bến Tre Province.

[edit] Vietnam War

One of the most famous quotes of the Vietnam War was a statement attributed to an anonymous American major by AP correspondent Peter Arnett. Writing about the provincial capital, Ben Tre, on February 7, 1968, Arnett said: "'it became necessary to destroy the town to save it,' a U.S. major says." To this day, "Ben Tre Logic" is a common saying for whenever a "logical" conclusion is to destroy something out of the perceived best interests of everyone involved. In his book Stolen Valor: How the Vietnam Generation was Robbed of its Heroes and History, author B. G. Burkett claims that Arnett had fabricated the quote. According to Arnett, U.S. forces destroyed the village of Bến Tre during the Tet Offensive. Burkett found that Bến Tre, as a provincial capital in the populous south, was not a village, but would be best described as a very large town or small city. He also discovered that the city was not destroyed, but was heavily damaged when the Viet Cong indiscriminately fired artillery into the city during the Tet Offensive.[1][2]

cmac2012 · #**292** 10-13-2007, 06:38 PM

B.G. Burkett's POV/testimony has about as much credence as John O'Neill's or Sgt. Barry Sadler's.

This is Peragro in motion: find some ax-grinding crank who gets a posting on Wiki, and then hold it up as proof positive.

OK, let's say, FTSOD, that Arnett did make it up. Was it far away from the truth? I say it wasn't.

cmac2012 · #**293** 10-13-2007, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howitzer

I could never figure that line out, there is nothing of value to destroy in Somalia. I've felt worse about knocking over a sand castle.

I can understand you'd feel that way, they don't impress me much either, but if all you have to keep the rain or night air off your head is a sheet metal shack, and that's all you've ever had, along with numerous AK 47s and much ammo, I suspect you'd not take the destruction of them kindly.

Double ditto for the huts in Vietnam which had a nice organic feel to them. Untold millions of our ancestors lived in dwellings little better.

Palangi · #**294** 10-13-2007, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

OK, let's say, FTSOD, that Arnett did make it up. Was it far away from the truth? I say it wasn't.

How did that sort of logic work out for Dan Blather??

cmac2012 · #**295** 10-13-2007, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palangi

How did that sort of logic work out for Dan Blather??

I don't think he made it up, I'm going to find the clip of a US officer saying that on video yet, and the opinion about Arnett being a traitor in Iraq is far from unanimous.

He didn't cheerlead the folly in Vietnam or Iraq so he's fair game.

peragro · #**296** 10-13-2007, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

B.G. Burkett's POV/testimony has about as much credence as John O'Neill's or Sgt. Barry Sadler's.

This is Peragro in motion: find some ax-grinding crank who gets a posting on Wiki, and then hold it up as proof positive.

OK, let's say, FTSOD, that Arnett did make it up. Was it far away from the truth? I say it wasn't.

Thanks for the ad hominem.

Have you found your soldier that said it yet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://johnibii.wordpress.com/category/peter-arnett/

Braestrup was the first to identify Peter Arnett as a serial prevaricator. Arnett was the source of the story that became emblematic of the entire offensive: that the Viet Cong had shot their way into the U.S. Saigon embassy and held it overnight. In truth, the VC sappers who penetrated embassy grounds were quickly dispatched before entering any buildings, a fact that went unmentioned by Arnett and many later histories of the war. Shortly afterward Arnett reported a quote from an American major concerning operations in the town of Ben Tre:
‘We had to destroy the town in order to save it.’
Nobody, not Arnett, not the reporters who accompanied him, not his employers at the AP, were ever able to produce this ‘major,’ which didn’t prevent the line from becoming the leading catchphrase of the antiwar movement. (Braestrup’s research uncovered the fact that the phrase was already in the air — almost identical words were used by the Times’ James Reston in an editorial appearing the same day as Arnett’s report.)

Your last comment seems to sum up your argument rather nicely. Despite lack of evidence or actual evidence to the contrary you are going to stick with your beliefs. Note the emphasis on beliefs rather than actual events. It has lots to do with your ability to take propaganda, knowing it is propaganda, and use it to declare your point just and true at the expense of others who bother to back up their assertions with factual documentation.

Stolen Valor : How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of Its Heroes and Its History (Hardcover)
by BURKETT (Author), Glenna Whitley (Author)

Customer Reviews
236 Reviews
5 star:

(173)
4 star:

(31)
3 star:

(10)
2 star:

(3)
1 star:

(19)

Reading through some of those 236 reviews, it's amazing how many are veterans of Vietnam.

I'm sure you haven't read the book, nor have I. I probably will though, can you say the same?

peragro · #**297** 10-13-2007, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I don't think he made it up, I'm going to find the clip of a US officer saying that on video yet, and the opinion about Arnett being a traitor in Iraq is far from unanimous.

He didn't cheerlead the folly in Vietnam or Iraq so he's fair game.

I'm sure that someone by this time has made up the clip that you're looking for. No doubt something similar to Rather's documents regarding Bush. I mean that's ok right? Even if it's not true in reality it's somehow true in the cosmic scope of things...

For accuracies sake, I would expect your video clip to be of a Major shortly after the destruction of Ban Tre speaking with Peter Arnett; if you're hoping for any legitimacy. Since that is what Mr. Arnett has said it was.

Botnst · #**298** 10-13-2007, 07:18 PM

I was there, dude, and I heard him say it. I was in a super-elite SEAL Team sworn to secrecy so you'll never see my name in any list. Even the many awards I got are still secret. But I was there. I was assigned to shadow Peter Arnett because some people in the CIA ordered a hit on him, dude. I had to sanction a lot of them. I used my Kabar knife or my hands, which are registered weapons in 30 states.

B

tankdriver · #**299** 10-13-2007, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Back to Mogadishu, I always wondered about the guy who missed the rope while swinging out of the chopper. I assume Bowden's account was correct about his falling and how his injury sorta began the snowball of events to some degree.

That would be hard to live with, I'm guessing. I beat myself up over far more minor mistakes.

(can you believe I haven't seen the movie yet? I've wanted to for years, I'll have to get it at the library)

I can say if it were me, I wouldn't beat myself up about it. It's not a mistake. There isn't a 100% guarantee that any jump or rappel goes perfectly. That means every once in a while, that small percentage of it going bad has to happen. Besides, there were many other instances where things could have changed dramatically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palangi

How did that sort of logic work out for Dan Blather??

The fact that a *****storm over an ancillary piece of evidence that was true in substance got him ousted means only that those who beat the drums got their way. Lucky for us the liberal media ignored the storm - oh wait, no they didn't.

As long as we're recommending Vietnam books, my favorite book (of any genre) is Bloods by Wallace Terry. A fantastic (and very quick) read.

Palangi · #**300** 10-13-2007, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

The fact that a *****storm over an ancillary piece of evidence that was true in substance got him ousted means only that those who beat the drums got their way. Lucky for us the liberal media ignored the storm - oh wait, no they didn't.

When asked to back up his claims, Blather had nothing but (Insert Popeye Doyle line from "The French Connection" here) in his hands.

What did that do for the reputation of See B.S. news??

What's Dan Blather doing these days??