You certainly have no problem with the unsubstantiated claims of WMD made by Bush. Or is he a liar also?

I don't believe I said the "veterans" were all liars, did I?

Nevertheless, your argument is wonderfully analogous.

In the case of Bush, his Administration interpreted ambiguous information as threatening. In the case of the "Veterans" (I use quotation marks to call attention to their ambiguous nature. Some, of whom later turned-out to be bogus or exaggerated their involvement in Viet Nam), they offer no proof other than their weepy words.

In neither case did people who should have been very skeptical, embrace skepticism. Instead, they embraced what they believed to be true, despite lack of conclusive evidence.

B

How did Bush and WMD's get into this?

It does seem that "truth" is simply that with which I choose to agree.

Pretty poor standard for "truth"

__________________
1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

When B claimed that K's testimony before Congress was a lie because it was unsubstantiated. Bush addressed Congress and made unsubstantiated claims about WMD. If Ks testimony was a lie, isn't W's also?

I agree


Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.
Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.
Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.

___________________________

First, without a strong inspection system, Iraq would be free to retain and begin to rebuild its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs in months, not years.
Second, if Saddam can crippled the weapons inspection system and get away with it, he would conclude that the international community -- led by the United States -- has simply lost its will. He will surmise that he has free rein to rebuild his arsenal of destruction, and someday -- make no mistake -- he will use it again as he has in the past.

Now, to be fair, since we're playing tit-for-tat here, someone should come up with a quote from a wanna-be president Republican in which he compares the entire US military to "Jingas Khan's army" and it's ability to be ruthless and pillage; purely for political gain.

Or, we could take the logical route out of things and realize that people have different reasons for doing things that result from different motives. I.e., a) Bush and Clinton and anyone with a brain were worried about the threat that a Saddam-run Iraq posed and realized that the only people who were ever going to do anything about it was the US. b) JFK belittled the entire military in an attempt to find a cause that would propel him in his desire to gain political office. In both cases, incorrect information was stated before Congress.

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

Well, I'm figuring that the ax Burkett has to grind is to do with folks who claim to be soldiers when they're not, lie about what it was they did when they were soldiers and reporters that make up quotes that illustrate the viewpoint of the reporter at the expense of the country and the soldiers fighting the war that the objective reporter is supposed to be objectivly covering. I just really don't see why he would be so pissed about those things??? I mean really, can you??

As far as that O'Neill guy goes, I mean DUUUUUUDDDDE!!!!!

This guy was such a hard-core Bush Neo-con Republican fascist that he's a registered Democrat and started disagreeing with Kerry about what it was that Kerry did in Vietnam when he was there and what Kerry did when he got home in the early 70's. I mean, it was brilliant, man! Your dude, O'Neill started swift-boating Kerry way back when on the Dick Cavett show, like, over 30 years before he ran against Bush. That just proves that Bush is really Satan - I mean, who else could manipulate Time like that???

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

So the signed letter to remove Rush from the airwaves is on Ebay and the bid is over $40k. Rush said he'll donate the winnings to a Marines charity and has put out a challenge to the 41 signers to also match the selling price and give it up to the charity.

Do you think any of them well step up to that challenge?

You have to admit, that's just pure genus.

A dodge with an extra degree of artfulness is still a dodge. Some of the guys had photos. I suppose they could have thrown a bunch of dessicated ears on the table but I imagine most of the guys who would show up for that kind of event had long since gotten rid of them.

Who can judge whether or not they could control their emotions at that time? Faked weepiness is often easy to spot.

UNO MASS: What kind of evidence could they have presented? Dead Cong bodies? Vietnamese women who would testify to rape? Chunks of pasture that no longer grew plants? Boxes full of ashes of former huts? Under the circumstances, personal testimony is what they had to offer.

I don't buy the scenario that each and every one of those guys was lying, as Burkett implies when he wrote "In fact, the entire Winter Soldiers Investigation was a lie."

I could see a few trying to discredit the war with BS but not that the entire group. We know various atrocities took place. Furthermore, Burkett claims to have outed what 1700 'vets' as frauds? Dude, that's a Herculean feat of investigative reporting. Oh, here it is:

Indeed, Burkett discovered that over the last decade, some 1,700 individuals, including some of the most prominent examples of the Vietnam veteran as dysfunctional loser, had fabricated their war stories. Many had never even been in the service. Others, had been, but had never been in Vietnam.

Where is the proof, the evidence, of that, which you claim to demand?

Can you see the contradiction here? The WS vets cannot provide proof, therefor, they are liars. Burkett writes a book, clearly with some wounded pride going on, and his word is golden.

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Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Your proof, your evidence that they were bogus or prevaricators is based entirely on Burkett, whose very words indict him as an exaggerator and evader of the truth?? Is that what I'm getting here?

__________________
Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

You ought to be embarrassed by this sort of crap. Burkett believed our presence in Vietnam was good and honorable. He was deeply offended at the very notion that US forces could possibly do wrong. O'Neill came across like a pin - headed punk up against Kerry arrogant smoothy routine. They were both hard to take.

In an earlier post, you mentioned that many of the reviewers of Burkett's book were Nam vets who spoke well of it.

What's this? You mean all those guys who took part in the Swift Boating in '04 weren't actors? I'm supposed to be surprised that many vets believe the only problem with Vietnam is that they weren't allowed to "finish the job?" (not an actual quote, Botnst).

You prove nothing here other than the fact that you've already made up your mind about these things, most of which took place while you were still in diapers. You trumpet the "evidence" that supports your desired conclusion and dismiss that which doesn't. And then you presume to lecture me about what is science and what is not.

Seek ye some learning, young Peragro.

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Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

I think Mr. Burkett was deeply offended by phony soldiers, as any genuine soldier would and should be. The difference between his book and the Winter Soldier Investigation is that his publication has resulted in hundreds of phony soldiers being exposed. It just so happened that many of them were associated with WS; an investigation that resulted no one being exposed.

I'm not so willing to sell O'Neill down the river. He felt strongly in his opinions regarding what Kerry had to say and did. He stood up for what he thought and for the honor of the US Soldier, long before there was an election between Bush and Kerry.

I see that you are all-knowing with regard to Vietnam. I'm not. I merely have to follow factual evidence and ask for proof of claims made. I only wish that I had your ability to sum people up so readily as the "pin-headed punks" that they are or even the ability to decide a persons worth based on their aura or a sidewards "shifty" glance. I should know my place and not lecture the lecturer.

I take it you still haven't found the Major that "spoke" about Ben Tre (yes, those quotes are on purpose for a reason)?

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

The post, originally, started out about Rush calling a particular individual and his kind/ilk, on his show, "phony soldiers" - And the result was what we've put up with for over 327+ additional posts..."He said this/he said that."

Geez, recess is over! Get back to class...

BTW, cmac2012, a while back I had to point out to everyone that when a liberal/Dem is losing an argument, the name-calling/nick-name game starts anew.

Guess who got caught flinging the first bit of "name-mud?"

Yep.

And Perago...you should know better than to get baited by cmac2012...

FACT: People either love Rush, or HATE HIS @55 SO BAD that they pi55 tacks...fair enough.

BUT, when we have legislators, on the Congressional floor, demanding either public apologies or threaten to ban a persons' right to free speech, it's damn time to get into Congress and remove the idiots from office.

If anyone, on this forum, doesn't see this, then good luck to you when the day comes that YOU'VE SAID THE WRONG THING.

(Acccording to what the majority around you thinks. I believe Nazi Germany & Stalinist Russia both practiced "selective speech" very well during their years of rule.)

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M. G. Burg
'10 - Dakota SXT - Daily Ride / ≈ 172.5K
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..'77 - 280E - 123.033.12 / > 128.20 K
...'67 - El Camino - 283ci / > 207.00 K
....'75 - Yamaha - 650XS / < 21.00 K
.....'87 - G20 Sportvan / > 206.00 K
......'85 - 4WINNS 160 I.O. / 140hp
.......'74 - Honda CT70 / Real 125
.
“I didn’t really say everything I said.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~ Yogi Berra ~

Some of it maybe true. It is certainly more believable when they have more than a weepy voice and an anguished look while wearing ragged-ass fatigues.

"Feel mah payne!"

B