I think "hate crimes" are misnamed, and that is the source of the problem. Were they called "bigoted crimes," perhaps it would make more sense.

In the larger sense (like Stalin or Milosevic), they are simply called "war crimes." But it's the same thing.

Matt- I'm the last one to site semantics being the right-brainer that i am but it comes down to the "language." Most people understand what a "Hate crime" is and that involves someone who is a bigot and no one is using the term "biogot crime." According to the Random house dictionary- a bigot is "a person who is intolerant of any creed, belief or race that is not his or her own." Does that make sense?

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"It's normal for these things to empty your wallet and break your heart in the process."
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I would think that most people understand this. But why then, do I hear things like, "All murders are hate crimes." This clearly isn't so.

Motive seems relevatnt only inasmuch as it refers to "intentional" or "accidental" commission of a crime as far as I can tell. What say YOU?

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OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
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Agnosticism is the lack of knowledge. If you say that you don't know, but believe on faith, you are agnostic. Same as if you don't know, but don't believe. Gnostic's claimed to know that there was a god.

I thought it was defined as: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

Faith is firm belief in something for which there is no proof. AFAIK, you are accepting something as true WITHOUT formal proof.

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There is a large difference between killing and murder, but our lack of education in English makes it easy to blur the distinction.
Killing can be done by the State as a judicial action; Not Murder.
Killing may also be done by the State as an act of war. Soldiers kill enemy soldiers (and civilians).

Murder is a special subset of killing. As mentioned above, it is a person taking a life with malice and aforethought.

All murders are killings, but not all killings are murder.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

I'm gonna have to side with Kerry on this one. I mean, who defines what "religion" really means? I'm guessing 99.9% of the population believes in a loose definition similar to what Kerry outlined, belief in a higher power, some sort of ritualistic behaviour and holy text, etc. An athiest simply doesn't adhere to these concepts......some "beliefs" yes and some "faith" in believing those concepts, sure.....but not the traditional confines of "religion".

Do you call a group of fanatical benz enthusiasts a religion? We all pretty much feel the same way about our cars. It's no different.

I suppose I see your point...but really, this has just devolved into hair-splitting semantics.

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1981 240d - 135k - Arlene

I'll have to respectfully disagree with the hairsplitting semantics concept. I think religion is a product of highly developed primate culture. Other animals have 'beliefs' but they don't have religion. My cat 'believes' in the existence of the physical world. It believes that periodically the red bowl in the corner of the kitchen will contain edible material and it carries out its life in accord with this belief. My cat does not have religion. It worships no gods, believes in no afterlife (something I forgot to include in my original list), reads no bible.
Most of the cats beliefs seem correlated with the immediate sensual presence of objects, but it must believe that these objects exist when not in its immediate presence because the cat will return to the room looking for food in the bowl.
I think the fact that we have language expands the kinds of things we can think about. Cats don't have math but we do because we can abstract from our immediate experience. Just because can can create and use math doesn't mean that we have to, nor that we necessarily think that math is good. I think the same kind of situation applies to religion. We can create religion because of our highly developed linguistic abilities and we can use it. But this doesn't mean we have to think it is good nor does it compel us to use it. We can think in supernatural terms, like most religions do, or we can think in natural terms, seeking explanations for events and our lives in material terms. In other words, we can adopt the metaphysics of the cat and reject the metaphysics of religion.
So, if we call the beliefs of materialistic naturalism religion, then we also have to call the cat religious, and I'm not prepared to do that at the moment.

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No, I agree with you Kerry....I was saying that MS Fowler was getting hung up on semantics...on how he thinks religion is defined. I don't think you can call the materialistic naturalism of a furry feline religion nor Forced Induction's "beliefs". Do they both believe in something? Sure....but that doesn't translate to religious participation in my humble opinion.

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1981 240d - 135k - Arlene

I don't want to put words on MS's post, but we've had similar discussions in the past and I think our differences lie in a disagreement about the ultimate source of religion. MS is a Christian theist who I think believes religion is implanted in us by God and we naturally are theists. So, if people are not theists, they have perverted this natural religion and created a substitute religion because for one reason or another, the natural religion is unacceptable. (MS--correct me if I misunderstand) I think this view has a long history in Christianity and it's correlated with the idea of original sin as a turn towards humanism.
I disagree with this accounting of religion. I think it's historically false because monotheism is a pretty late development in human culture so it can't be 'natural'. I also thinks it sets up materialistic naturalistic humanism as a 'false religion' or a deviant substitute for true montheism. I also disagree with it because it is a supernatural account of religion. I think natural accounts of religion are all we need.
Again, perhaps I misunderstand MS. But I do think our differences are not just semantic but substantial.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
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1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
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1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
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I believe that you are projecting your feelings to me, MS, in that you can't see how non-belief could do anything but affect my actions.

It did not take faith to come to the conclusion that I don't believe in a god. It took an eroding of faith. Still, your statement is a popular one with people wishing to belittle atheists.

I don't hold any "morally superior position" because of my disbelief. However, just as you, I think that I am right and you are wrong. Unlike you, I don't expect to find out for sure when I die.

Gotcha - I see your point...it's much more than simple vernacular.....forgive my feeble little mind.

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1981 240d - 135k - Arlene

Kerry,
I really wasn't going doen that trail.

The problem, as are many problems, sione of definition. In fact even a cursory look at several dictionaries will reveal a multiplicity of definitions of "religion".
If we cannot agree on the definition, we cannot hope to agree on whether atheism is a religion.

Its like the old argument," If a tree falls in the forest, and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound"
Again, it depends on the definition--in my 7th grade science class the teacher used the deifintion that there must be a source of vibration (within a spoecific Hz range), a medium to transmit the vibrations, and a receptor to "hear" the vibrations. By his definition, the answer to the above question is "no".
But a different definition that looked at the physics of vibration, apart from the need for a hearer, might well draw a different conclusion.
The point is that apart from agreement on terms we will not resolve this to our mutual satisfaction. ( I'll just contine assuming I am right; you will go on thinking you are right.)

Where else do you get to have discussions like this?

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

Ok.
Do you think the cat has religion because it has beliefs?

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13