The Gun Thread

[Hatterasguy]

Originally Posted by Fulcrum525

Krasnogvardeysk

On August 14, 1941, the vanguard of the German 8th Panzer Division approached Krasnogvardeysk (Gatchina) near Leningrad (St Petersburg), and the only Soviet force available at the time to attempt to stop the German advance consisted of five well-hidden KV-1 tanks, dug in within a grove at the edge of a swamp. KV-1 tank no. 864 was commanded by the leader of this small force, Lieutenant Zinoviy Kolobanov.



German forces attacked Krasnogvardeysk from three directions. Near Noviy Uchkhoz settlement the geography favoured the Soviet defenders as the only road in the region passed the swamp, and the defenders commanded this choke point from their hidden position. Lieutenant Kolobanov had carefully studied the situation and readied his detachment the day before. Each KV-1 tank carried twice the normal amount of ammunition, two-thirds being armour-piercing rounds. Kolobanov ordered his other commanders to hold their fire and await orders. He did not want to reveal the total force, so only one exposed tank at a time would engage the enemy.
On August 14, the German 8th Panzer Division's vanguard ventured directly into the well-prepared Soviet ambush, with Kolobanov's tank knocking out the lead German tank with its first shot. The Germans falsely assumed that their lead tank had hit an anti-tank mine, and failed to realize that they had been ambushed. The German column stopped, giving Kolobanov the opportunity to destroy the second tank. Only then did the Germans realize they were under attack, but they failed to find the source of the shots. While the German tanks were firing blindly, Kolobanov knocked out the trailing German tank, thus boxing in the entire column.
Although the Germans correctly guessed the direction of fire, they could only spot Lieutenant Kolobanov's tank, and now attempted to engage an unseen enemy. German tanks moving off the road bogged down in the surrounding soft ground, becoming easy targets. 22 German tanks and 2 towed artillery pieces fell victim to Kolobanov's No. 864 before it ran out of ammunition. Kolobanov ordered in another KV-1, and 21 more German tanks were destroyed before the half-hour battle ended. A total of 43 German tanks were destroyed by just five Soviet KV-1s (two more remained in reserve).
After the battle, the crew of No. 864 counted a total of 135 hits on their tank, none of which had penetrated the KV-1's armour. Lieutenant Kolobanov was awarded the Order of Lenin, while his driver Usov was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. Later on, former Captain Zinoviy Kolobanov was again decorated by Soviet authorities, despite having been been convicted and downgraded after the Winter War for "fraternizing with the enemy." After the end of World War II, Lieutenant Kolobanov served in the Soviet occupation zone in Eastern Germany, where he was convicted again when a subordinate escaped to the British occupation zone, and was transferred to the reserves.
The battle for Krasnogvardeysk was covered up by Soviet propaganda. A monument dedicated to this battle was installed in the village of Noviy Uchkhoz in 1980, at the place where Kolobanov's KV-1 was dug in, due solely to the demands of the villagers. Unfortunately it was impossible to find a KV-1 tank, so an IS-2 heavy tank was installed there instead.[1]
The Soviet victory was the result of a well-planned ambush in advantageous ground and of technical superiority. Most of the German tanks in this battle were Panzer IIs, armed with 20 mm guns, and a few Panzer IIIs armed with 37 mm KwK 36 L/46.5 guns. The German tank guns had neither the range nor the power of the 76 mm main gun of a KV-1, and the narrower track width of the German tanks caused them to become trapped in the swampy ground.

Yep, as all the German commanders have said, they were always heavly outgunned, and usualy there tanks were out classed. Tactics, communication, flexibility, and combined arms support won them the battle.

[LaRondo]

How about a S&W model 28 'Highway Patrolman'? Might be easier to be found than a lost German Panzer Division.

[LaRondo]

Originally Posted by Mistress

What criteria do you think should be put in place to purchase /own a gun and what is your favorite gun? Please feel free to take this thread wherever you like.

Criteria? CZ 2075 RAMI

[Skippy]

She's a bit better looking than the one in all the Kahr Arms ads.

Edit: I just spent some time looking at Julie Goloski's web site-entertaining.

http://www.juliegoloski.com/

[LaRondo]

Originally Posted by Skippy

She's a bit better looking than the one in all the Kahr Arms ads.

Edit: I just spent some time looking at Julie Goloski's web site-entertaining.

http://www.juliegoloski.com/

You're talking about the little sub-compact 9mm the young lady is evidently holding in her hand, right?

[LUVMBDiesels]

Since this has turned into another US Army Vs Citizens thread I will put in my two pennies... Sure one Big @ssed dud with a rife is not going to stand up to a tank. However, millions of Gun Nuts standing together will bring down anything. Look at the Chinese during the Korean War. A bunch of half trained bolt action rifle toting peasants went after the best trained and best equipped army in the world and beat it to a draw. Now take this same army, cut it in half as units and individual soldiers desert to help the armed citizens defend their rights and see what happens...

I hope it never happens, but I think that the Army would not be able to crush an armed insurection if it was national in scope. The only reason the Union won the Civil War was that there was a safe power base up North to draw men and materials from...

Back to the topic... I like that Highway Patrolman! What do they go for? I am looking for an inexpensive handgun for "home use" and to take to the range. Am I right in assuming it is a .38?

[LaRondo]

The S&W model 28 is a N (large) frame .357 Mag, which also allows for .38spl. The Magnum cartridge is slightly longer then the .38. The cylinder is chambered accordingly.

The S&W 28 is the 'No Frills' version of the S&W 27 .357 Mag. The 28's finish is a matte blue (black). She comes in 6" or 4" BBL.

Pricing is hard to tell at the moment after all the frenzy on the gun market. The 28 was discontinued in the late 80's as where the 27 and S&W 29 (.44 Mag or .44 Spl) within the same time period. All of which are N frames.

That means for some these are collectors at the lower end. Than it depends where you are located. The 4" bbl usually goes for a bit more then the 6" bbl. Minimum used to be $300 (I got word from a fella in NM, he found a 6" in very good condition for $300 shop price, last year)
Maximum I heard of was $750 for a 4" in very good condition in Northern Cali.
A good condition 27 or 29 would be more in any case, except you find one from a private party.

There are many other S&W models out there to be considered K/L (medium) frames and even J (small) frame are out in .357 Mag/ .38spl.

If you want more info on S&W wheel guns, just ask. You can browse this website for current models of all different makes and types of firearms:

https://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/default.aspx

[Fulcrum525]

AK-47...you might not be able to kit things from far away but theres no hiding from it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0

Also if worst comes to worst and all the bullets miss, you can always throw it and the other guy and burn him with it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14c

[DieselAddict]

Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels

Since this has turned into another US Army Vs Citizens thread I will put in my two pennies... Sure one Big @ssed dud with a rife is not going to stand up to a tank. However, millions of Gun Nuts standing together will bring down anything. Look at the Chinese during the Korean War. A bunch of half trained bolt action rifle toting peasants went after the best trained and best equipped army in the world and beat it to a draw. Now take this same army, cut it in half as units and individual soldiers desert to help the armed citizens defend their rights and see what happens...

I hope it never happens, but I think that the Army would not be able to crush an armed insurection if it was national in scope. The only reason the Union won the Civil War was that there was a safe power base up North to draw men and materials from...

They better not stand together as a few bombing runs will make minced meat out of them. I still don't buy this scenario. Iraq has clearly shown that guns are not very effective against a modern army. Road side bombs, suicide bombs and RPG's are a lot more effective, and none of those are made legal by the 2nd amendment. Iraq has also shown that an insurgency can relatively easily be bought off and split up. Now if the insurrection is truly national in scope, then the violent way may not even be the best way or necessary, and it can even be counterproductive. It's a lot harder for the military to gun down an unarmed opposition than one that is shooting at them.

[LUVMBDiesels]

Originally Posted by LaRondo

The S&W model 28 is a N (large) frame .357 Mag, which also allows for .38spl. The Magnum cartridge is slightly longer then the .38. The cylinder is chambered accordingly.

The S&W 28 is the 'No Frills' version of the S&W 27 .357 Mag. The 28's finish is a matte blue (black). She comes in 6" or 4" BBL.

Pricing is hard to tell at the moment after all the frenzy on the gun market. The 28 was discontinued in the late 80's as where the 27 and S&W 29 (.44 Mag or .44 Spl) within the same time period. All of which are N frames.

That means for some these are collectors at the lower end. Than it depends where you are located. The 4" bbl usually goes for a bit more then the 6" bbl. Minimum used to be $300 (I got word from a fella in NM, he found a 6" in very good condition for $300 shop price, last year)
Maximum I heard of was $750 for a 4" in very good condition in Northern Cali.
A good condition 27 or 29 would be more in any case, except you find one from a private party.

There are many other S&W models out there to be considered K/L (medium) frames and even J (small) frame are out in .357 Mag/ .38spl.



If you want more info on S&W wheel guns, just ask. You can browse this website for current models of all different makes and types of firearms:

https://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/default.aspx

Thanks!

[Botnst]

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

They better not stand together as a few bombing runs will make minced meat out of them. I still don't buy this scenario. Iraq has clearly shown that guns are not very effective against a modern army.....

is exactly how we lost Vietnam. They had small arms and were mostly afoot, we had mechanized war. They were willing to absorb huge casualty rates. We were intolerant of relatively low casualty rates. Our politicians surrendered. We lost. The Vietnamese commies won. Same with Somalia.

We almost surrendered last year in Iraq when Pelosi, Reid, and Obama declared we had lost the war. I hear increasing rumblings favoring surrender in Afghanistan following the same pattern as above. I give Obama a year, maybe two, before his anti-war voters begin to turn on him. Obama will have less time because he ran on a platform, like Nixon, of getting us out of the wars. Like Nixon, Obama is getting us out by increasing troop strength. as he increases presence he will increasingly own the war. Just as Nixon now owns Johnson's war.

[Mistress]

hopefully Obama's "listening skills" are better....

[JollyRoger]

Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels

Since this has turned into another US Army Vs Citizens thread I will put in my two pennies... Sure one Big @ssed dud with a rife is not going to stand up to a tank. However, millions of Gun Nuts standing together will bring down anything. Look at the Chinese during the Korean War. A bunch of half trained bolt action rifle toting peasants went after the best trained and best equipped army in the world and beat it to a draw. Now take this same army, cut it in half as units and individual soldiers desert to help the armed citizens defend their rights and see what happens...

I hope it never happens, but I think that the Army would not be able to crush an armed insurection if it was national in scope. The only reason the Union won the Civil War was that there was a safe power base up North to draw men and materials from...

Back to the topic... I like that Highway Patrolman! What do they go for? I am looking for an inexpensive handgun for "home use" and to take to the range. Am I right in assuming it is a .38?

Any armed insurrection in this country would come from a disgruntled minority, and be a law enforcement problem that would be easily handled, gun owners in general are not a cohesive group, in fact, a huge chunk of them are black people, who I do not see rising up at this time, and another huge chunk is law enforcement personnel. The rest are home defenders, and oh yes, lastly there is a small group of tin-foil hat right wing nut jobs, who think they could do an armed insurrection, but for the most part, in reality they would never risk their jobs, families and homes in order to make a political point in a country that for all it's faults still gets to pick it's own government every few years. That leaves the hard core nuts. They'd get about as far as The Republic of Texas nuts did a few years back, which was like, mostly shot or in prison.

My favorite in-expensive gun is the Browning Hi-Power clone sold by Fabrique Nationale, they are a few hundred bucks cheaper than the real thing and are so close in quality to the real thing it is amazing.

[pj67coll]

Originally Posted by JollyRoger

Any armed insurrection in this country would come from a disgruntled minority,

Probably.

and be a law enforcement problem that would be easily handled,

Like they've "handled" the war on drugs, or illegal immigration?

gun owners in general are not a cohesive group,

True.

That leaves the hard core nuts.

As is the case with almost any rebellion.

My favorite in-expensive gun is the Browning Hi-Power clone sold by Fabrique Nationale, they are a few hundred bucks cheaper than the real thing and are so close in quality to the real thing it is amazing.

FN has a long history of making quality weaponry. Rather ironic considering Belgium's military irrellivance for most of it's history. I have some fine Yugoslavian M24/47 Mausers which were originally Belgian manufactured I think.

- Peter.

[Doktor Bert]

I have carried a Beretta Pistol since 1992. I have come to appreciate their reliability. I have also carried the S&W Model 10, S&W 686, Colt 1911, Glock 21, Glock 22 and H&K USP on duty since that time, but my preference is Beretta...Robert