Cantor stalls the Violence Against Women Act - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #16 12-07-2012, 01:21 PM

We need a law against violence against one-legged Laotian immigrants.

cmbdiesel · #17 12-07-2012, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

We need a law against violence against one-legged Laotian immigrants.

Sure.... and just what are the no-legged Laotian immigrants to do??

Botnst · #18 12-07-2012, 02:00 PM

It's so sad. If just a single one-legged Laotian gets his ass kicked because my proposed law doesn't get passed, It's Bush's fault.

elchivito · #19 12-07-2012, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Rapier

How is it know to you that a vast majority of rapes are committed by non-indian men when you later claim that victims rarely report these crimes?

The epidemic of violence against women on tribal lands is staggering; 34 percent of American Indian and Alaska Native women will be raped in their lifetimes, 39 percent will experience domestic violence, and as a Department of Justice study found, non-Indians commit 88 percent of these heinous crimes. Tribal justice systems are the most appropriate entities to root out these criminals, yet they are the ones with tied hands—restricted by antiquated jurisdictional laws established the U.S. government limiting tribes from prosecuting non-Native criminals.

VAWA Tribal Provisions Are Constitutionally Sound - ICTMN.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Rapier

If your other statements are to be beleived then you would have no objection to non-indian rapists avoiding prosecution, its attendent legal consequences and permanent record by settling up with the families of rape victims in exchange for some livestock?

I certainly didn't say I approved of that, I mentioned it in passing.You'd do well to avoid putting words in my mouth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Rapier

Under what principle of criminal jurisprudence does the victim's family become entitled to compensation for a rape committed against one of its females? How many ponys does the "victim" herself get, or is it more like the Islamic family/clan/tribe honor fetish? Under what principle of jurisprudence does the Navajo tribal police wield such discretion? Or should that aspect of tribal justice be reserved unequally for indians only?

Under no "principal of jurisprudence" that I'm aware of. The rape I mentioned was settled between families in a traditional manner and I am led to believe by a dozen years in close contact with this particular culture that that is often the case even today among traditional families. It is what it is, I did not express an opinion or justification for it one way or the other. Perhaps you have some other first hand knowledge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Rapier

Seems like everyone indian and non-indian alike have a constitutional right to equal protection before the law, no?

Makes sense to me, and that's exactly what the VAWA bill will do if Cantor and his racist cronies will quit dicking with it. Thanks for your input, Billy.

mgburg · #20 12-07-2012, 03:03 PM

I bet if someone pulled down the whole VAW Act and read the damn thing from beginning to end, there'll be something that'll jump out and we'll all (well, maybe half of us) start screaming "WHY THE H*LL IS THAT IN THIS ACT?!?!?!?!"

There's some "markup" shoved in this thing, but no one wants to screw the pooch and let everyone else know what it is...

So until "everyone" working on this thing gets what they want, the "Indian Rez" is being used as a smoke-screen 'til "Congressperson Bluffinpuff" and "Senator Suxmeoff" gets their way.

And then...WE GET IT...RIGHT UP THE OL' CHUTE...

Mark Rapier · #21 12-07-2012, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

The epidemic of violence against women on tribal lands is staggering; 34 percent of American Indian and Alaska Native women will be raped in their lifetimes, 39 percent will experience domestic violence, and as a Department of Justice study found, non-Indians commit 88 percent of these heinous crimes. Tribal justice systems are the most appropriate entities to root out these criminals, yet they are the ones with tied hands—restricted by antiquated jurisdictional laws established the U.S. government limiting tribes from prosecuting non-Native criminals.

VAWA Tribal Provisions Are Constitutionally Sound - ICTMN.com

So you're relying on the results of a study based on a data set which you also claim "Victims rarely report these crimes" in a culture which you also claim "Witnesses won't talk, family honor prevebts ratting out a relative or even a clan relative"?

If rape victims rarely report the crimes and if and when they do there is a cultural predisposition to not rat out relatives and clan relatives, should it be any suprise that a data set that is rarely complete and skewed in favor of ignoring relatives and clan relatives ends up concluding that non-indians commit 88% of the reported and analysed crime statistics?

To bad there isn't a breakdown of indian women who are abused and victimized by their non-indian spouses and boyfriends as opposed to just the average wandering unassociated non indian criminal rapists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

I certainly didn't say I approved of that, I mentioned it in passing.You'd do well to avoid putting words in my mouth.

I posed a question. You advocate for tribal justice you don't approve of? Got it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Under no "principal of jurisprudence" that I'm aware of. The rape I mentioned was settled between families in a traditional manner and I am led to believe by a dozen years in close contact with this particular culture that that is often the case even today among traditional families. It is what it is, I did not express an opinion or justification for it one way or the other. Perhaps you have some other first hand knowledge.

"Traditional manner", "traditional families" nice to see you supporting those quaint ideas, but haven't you heard those are not enough of a basis to deny equal treatment under the law!

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Makes sense to me, and that's exactly what the VAWA bill will do if Cantor and his racist cronies will quit dicking with it. Thanks for your input, Billy.

What's the going rate in ponies and sheep to rape an indian woman? Is it more or less than the cost to rape an indian man?
If a non-indian woman is raped on tribal property can she and her family under tribal traditional justice opt for the ponies and sheep or is that not an available option? I mean it's not here fault if she's raped on the reservation so how can they deny her the same rights as any indian rape victim?

elchivito · #22 12-07-2012, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Rapier

So you're relying on the results of a study based on a data set which you also claim "Victims rarely report these crimes" in a culture which you also claim "Witnesses won't talk, family honor prevebts ratting out a relative or even a clan relative"?

If rape victims rarely report the crimes and if and when they do there is a cultural predisposition to not rat out relatives and clan relatives, should it be any suprise that a data set that is rarely complete and skewed in favor of ignoring relatives and clan relatives ends up concluding that non-indians commit 88% of the reported and analysed crime statistics?

To bad there isn't a breakdown of indian women who are abused and victimized by their non-indian spouses and boyfriends as opposed to just the average wandering unassociated non indian criminal rapists.

I posed a question. You advocate for tribal justice you don't approve of? Got it.

"Traditional manner", "traditional families" nice to see you supporting those quaint ideas, but haven't you heard those are not enough of a basis to deny equal treatment under the law!

What's the going rate in ponies and sheep to rape an indian woman? Is it more or less than the cost to rape an indian man?
If a non-indian woman is raped on tribal property can she and her family under tribal traditional justice opt for the ponies and sheep or is that not an available option? I mean it's not here fault if she's raped on the reservation so how can they deny her the same rights as any indian rape victim?

Listen BB, this discussion with you is a fool's errand. You're still saying that I somehow support these traditional practices when I said no such thing.
Tell you what, let's cut to the chase here. The VAWA as written would allow tribal courts to prosecute non-indian sex perps in the tribes' own courts. That is currently not allowed. In your learned opinion, what's wrong with that?

SwampYankee · #23 12-07-2012, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgburg

I bet if someone pulled down the whole VAW Act and read the damn thing from beginning to end, there'll be something that'll jump out and we'll all (well, maybe half of us) start screaming "WHY THE H*LL IS THAT IN THIS ACT?!?!?!?!"

There's some "markup" shoved in this thing, but no one wants to screw the pooch and let everyone else know what it is...

So until "everyone" working on this thing gets what they want, the "Indian Rez" is being used as a smoke-screen 'til "Congressperson Bluffinpuff" and "Senator Suxmeoff" gets their way.

And then...WE GET IT...RIGHT UP THE OL' CHUTE...

That's what I first thought too, mg. But apparently it's dealing with the violence on tribal lands specifically that's a sticking point.

Quote:

The two sources say, to Cantor's credit, his staff has said they're willing to try to come up with other solutions to responding to violence against women on tribal lands, as long as the solution doesn't give tribes jurisdiction over the matter. But proponents of the Senate bill see the limited jurisdictional change as the only realistic way to address the problem.

Mark Rapier · #24 12-07-2012, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Listen BB, this discussion with you is a fool's errand. You're still saying that I somehow support these traditional practices when I said no such thing.
Tell you what, let's cut to the chase here. The VAWA as written would allow tribal courts to prosecute non-indian sex perps in the tribes' own courts. That is currently not allowed. In your learned opinion, what's wrong with that?

"Special" laws, for "special" people at "special" times in "special" places, under the guise of the "crisis du jour" is not good policy under a constitution that idealizes equal rights, justice and protection for all before the law.

Your own anecdote tells the story, the tribal police officer who observed you breaking tribal law which he was sworn to uphold, under tribal jurisdiction was wrong to use the excuse that you wouldn't be eventually prosecuted to violate his oath to enforce law he had sworn to uphold. The problem is that the law against any rape of any person by any person is not prosecuted. Your ponies and sheep for rape justice is a perfect example of exactly why "traditional" "tribal" justice should be avoided.

Let the tribes where this is happening to their women litigate the failure of the jurisdictional authorities to protect victims of crime and the failure of those same authorities to prosecute those crimes, hold those officials accountable rather than altering the larger and broader jurisdictional status quo to impliment a quasi-Taliban judicial reservation to address an over-hyped, media-manipulated cause celeb, which is purely politically motivated. I expect any day now some Hollywood celeb-head to pick up the torch ala`Marlon Brando.

Brian Carlton · #25 12-07-2012, 06:43 PM

Hi Phil.

How's the cape in the winter when all the DB's have departed? I would have thought you'd be a bit calmed down by now............but, alas............not so much.

Wish Ann a good Christmas for me.

elchivito · #26 12-07-2012, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Rapier

"Special" laws, for "special" people at "special" times in "special" places, under the guise of the "crisis du jour" is not good policy under a constitution that idealizes equal rights, justice and protection for all before the law.

Your own anecdote tells the story, the tribal police officer who observed you breaking tribal law which he was sworn to uphold, under tribal jurisdiction was wrong to use the excuse that you wouldn't be eventually prosecuted to violate his oath to enforce law he had sworn to uphold. The problem is that the law against any rape of any person by any person is not prosecuted. Your ponies and sheep for rape justice is a perfect example of exactly why "traditional" "tribal" justice should be avoided.

Let the tribes where this is happening to their women litigate the failure of the jurisdictional authorities to protect victims of crime and the failure of those same authorities to prosecute those crimes, hold those officials accountable rather than altering the larger and broader jurisdictional status quo to impliment a quasi-Taliban judicial reservation to address an over-hyped, media-manipulated cause celeb, which is purely politically motivated. I expect any day now some Hollywood celeb-head to pick up the torch ala`Marlon Brando.

I don't know about you, but I'd characterize an autonomous nation's inability to prosecute those non citizens who commit crimes within it's borders as "special laws" for "special people".
And BTW, I didn't say ponies. Your stereotypes are showing BillyBob.

ruchase · #27 12-07-2012, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

It's a real sticky deal on reservations, but the idea that Cantor et al would have reason NOT to allow tribal courts to protect their own women is beyond comprehension.

Dead on. A few years back, I remember listening to a clip on NPR where they interviewed a few indian women that were victims of rape/violence. Majority of the assaulters were not even indian, and when they reported it to the rez police, they got nothing as the rez laws don't apply outside. Really sad.

Mark Rapier · #28 12-07-2012, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

I don't know about you, but I'd characterize an autonomous nation's inability to prosecute those non citizens who commit crimes within it's borders as "special laws" for "special people".
And BTW, I didn't say ponies. Your stereotypes are showing BillyBob.

The Navajo Nation (Navajo: Naabeehó Bináhásdzo) is a semi-autonomous Native American-governed territory covering 27,425 square miles (71,000 km2), occupying portions of northeastern Arizona, southeastern Utah, and northwestern New Mexico
Jurisdiction
The United States still asserts plenary power to require the Navajo Nation to submit all proposed laws to the United States Secretary of the Interior for Secretarial Review, through the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_Nation

sem·i·au·ton·o·mous (s

m

-ô-t

n

-m

s, s

m

-)
adj.
1. Partially self-governing.
2.Having the powers of self-government within a larger organization or structure.

ple·na·ry (pl

n

-r

, pl

n

-)
adj.
1. Complete in all respects; unlimited or full: a diplomat with plenary powers.
2. Fully attended by all qualified members: a plenary session of the council.

I've provided both the actual legal circumstances applying to the “Navajo Nation” as well as the definitions of the applicable terms in the event that there is any further explaination required.

I can't be ceratin what you know about who, but what you claim to know about the presently constituted Navajo Nation is not in doubt. The Navajo Nation is not in fact an autonomous nation so your premise is false and fatally flawed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

More proof that these as sholes are not only misogynists, they are bigots to boot. Cantor and his buddies are stalling the passage of VAWA over a provision that gives tribal courts the jurisdiction to try cases of sexual assault against native women committed by non tribal members on reservations.
WTF?
The vast majority of rapes, and there are lots of rapes and assaults committed against indian women on reservations, are committed by non-indian men. Tribal courts can't try these men and off rez LEOs are loathe to prosecute. They get off scott free. I've seen it happen time and again.

Too bad Cantor's a jew, otherwise I bet the United Klans would love to recruit him.

Violence Against Women Act: Eric Cantor, Joe Biden In Talks Amid Stalled Tribal Provision

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

I don't know the answer to that but suspect it's probably a very old regulation designed when reservations were set up, specifically to protect white folks doing business on reservations. Or maybe I'm just cynical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

.....Makes sense to me, and that's exactly what the VAWA bill will do if Cantor and his racist cronies will quit dicking with it. Thanks for your input, Billy.

Accusing others of stereotyping people as you engage on your own bigotry? What is the basis of your prejudice against white men? Inferiority Complex? Picked on by the white kids back in the day?