The Positive - Page 7 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Air&Road · #91 04-03-2013, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P.C.

It's a sin to have the sentiments that you have displayed on this thread. Incredibly offensive. I'm off this thread.

Thanks Paul!

Air&Road · #92 04-03-2013, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesDean

Larry,

JFK was one of America's absolute BEST presidents. I'm not sure where you get your information.

This is generally accepted FACT. It goes #1 JFK. #2 BARACK OBAMA.

Whatever you say.

JamesDean · #93 04-03-2013, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

Whatever you say.

PROOF!

LARRY AGREES.

LARRY ENDORSES BARACK OBAMA!

YOU HEARD IT HERE!

t walgamuth · #94 04-03-2013, 04:01 PM

Accident summary
Date July 16, 1999 (1999-07-16)
Type Pilot error
Site Atlantic Ocean, off the coast of Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, U.S.A
41°17′37″N 70°58′39″W / 41.29367°N 70.97756°W / 41.29367; -70.97756Coordinates: 41°17′37″N 70°58′39″W / 41.29367°N 70.97756°W / 41.29367; -70.97756[1]
Passengers 2
Crew 1
Fatalities 3 (all)
Survivors 0
Aircraft type Piper PA-32R-301, Saratoga II
Operator private
Registration N9253N
Flight origin Essex County Airport, New Jersey (CDW)
Destination Martha's Vineyard Airport, Massachusetts (MVY)
On July 16, 1999, John F. Kennedy, Jr. died when the Piper Saratoga light aircraft he was piloting crashed into the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts. His wife, Carolyn Bessette, and sister-in-law, Lauren Bessette, were also killed. The flight had departed from Essex County Airport (CDW) in Fairfield Township, Essex County, New Jersey. The intended flight path was along the coastline of Connecticut and across Rhode Island Sound to its final destination of Martha's Vineyard Airport (MVY).

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined the crash was caused by: "the pilot's failure to maintain control of the airplane during a descent over water at night, which was a result of spatial disorientation".[1] The NTSB and other aviation professionals also cited numerous interrelated factors that may have contributed to the crash.

[edit] Causes This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (July 2012)
[edit] Haze and visibilityHazy conditions existed on the night of the crash. Especially at night, haze can lead to spatial disorientation for pilots. Although the weather was officially listed as VFR (Visual Flight Rules), allowing Kennedy to fly his plane that night despite his lack of an instrument rating, the visibility was poor in Essex County, New Jersey, and airports along his flight path reported visibilities between 5 and 8 miles with haze and few clouds. Other pilots flying similar routes on the night of the accident reported no visual horizon while flying over the water because of haze. Also, the NTSB reported on one pilot that cancelled a similar flight that evening due to "poor" weather. The conditions near the crash site were "Clear skies at or below 12,000 feet; visibility 10 miles".[1]

[edit] Pilot experienceKennedy obtained his private pilot license in April 1998 and did not possess an instrument rating, but had received a "high performance airplane" sign-off in June 1998 and a complex airplane sign-off two months before the crash.[1] Kennedy's estimated total flight experience was about 310 hours, of which 55 hours were at night. His estimated experience flying his plane without a certified flight instructor (CFI) on board was about 72 hours. His estimated flight time in his plane was about 36 hours, of which 9.4 hours were at night. Approximately 3 hours of that flight time were without a CFI on board, and only 48 minutes of that time was flown at night, which included just one night landing.[1] Fifteen months before the crash, Kennedy had flown about 35 flights either to or from northern New Jersey and the Martha's Vineyard area. He flew more than 17 of these legs without a CFI on board, including at least five at night. His last known flight in his airplane without a CFI on board was on May 28, 1999.[1]

[edit] Pilot trainingThe CFI who prepared Kennedy for his private pilot checkride stated that he had "very good" flying skills for his level of experience. Four months before the crash, Kennedy passed the FAA's written airplane instrument examination and enrolled in an instrument rating course. He continued to receive flight instruction in New Jersey in his plane, including flights from CDW to MVY. His instructors said he required help working the rudder pedals to taxi and land the plane because of his ankle injury. During a training flight at night under instrument conditions, his instructor stated that Kennedy had the ability to fly the airplane without a visible horizon but may have had difficulty performing additional tasks under such conditions. He also stated that the pilot was not ready for an instrument evaluation, and needed additional training. The instructor at the time of the crash was not aware that Kennedy would be flying in those conditions without an instructor on board. The CFI further stated that he had talked to Kennedy on the day of the accident and offered to fly with him that night. He stated that Kennedy had the capability to conduct a night flight to Martha's Vineyard as long as a visible horizon existed.

[edit] Psychological stressThe NTSB suggested that Kennedy's marriage may have contributed to a source of stress by the time of the crash; [2] Kennedy had spent the final three nights of his life apart from his wife at a New York City hotel.[3] Additionally, Kennedy's magazine, George, was in serious financial trouble. According to the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM): "stress from everyday living can impair pilot performance, often in subtle ways. Distractions can so interfere with judgment that unwarranted risks are taken, such as flying into deteriorating weather conditions to keep on schedule".

[edit] Pilot distractionKennedy's plane flew into the path of American Airlines Flight 1484, which was on the approach to Westchester County Airport.[1] Controllers instructed the American Airlines jet to descend to avoid a collision. The two aircraft came "uncomfortably close".[3]

[edit] No flight plan or request for helpKennedy never received a weather briefing or filed a flight plan with any Flight Service Station. Except for the take-off portion of his flight, Kennedy did not contact any air traffic controllers; during the flight, he never requested help or declared an emergency.[4] Under the conditions of his flight, Kennedy was not required to file a flight plan, and although he did not, no one knew his exact route or expected time of his arrival. According to the Weather Service International, Kennedy made two weather requests before taking off. The information he was provided indicated that visibility ranged from 10 miles along his route to four miles at Martha's Vineyard.

[edit] Late departureThe flight was originally scheduled for daylight hours, but had to be postponed after Kennedy's sister-in-law was delayed at work. Heavy traffic further delayed Kennedy's flight and pushed it back until after dark. Originally planned to depart at 6:00P.M., the flight departed at 8:39P.M., nearly a half-hour past sunset. At the time of the take-off, the moon was just above the horizon and provided very little illumination.

[edit] Flight over featureless, open waterAfter passing Point Judith, Rhode Island, Kennedy's plane headed directly towards Martha's Vineyard. Instead of following the coastline of Rhode Island Sound and Buzzards Bay, which would have provided visible lights on the ground, Kennedy chose the shorter, direct path over a 30-mile (50 km) open stretch of water. According to the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, crossing large bodies of water at night may be hazardous, not only from the standpoint of ditching in the water, but also because the featureless horizon visually blends with the water, in which case depth perception and orientation become difficult.

[edit] Injured footSix weeks before the crash, Kennedy had fractured his left ankle in a paragliding accident. He had surgery, wore a cast, and walked with a cane up until the day of the accident. During interviews, Kennedy's orthopaedic surgeon stated that, by the time of the crash, he would have been able to apply the type of pressure that would normally be required to drive a car.

[edit] Wrong frequenciesWhen the NTSB examined the wreckage, they discovered that both of Kennedy's radios had incorrect frequencies selected (he had selected 127.25 for Martha Vineyard's ATIS instead of 126.25; likewise, he selected 135.25 for Essex County ATIS, but it should have been 135.5). The NTSB did not comment on the contribution this factor had in the crash, if any.[1]

The above is most of the wiki listing for the crash. Now you may be able to determine things as a pilot that I cannot from reading this.

This suggests that all the weather reports stated 10 miles visibility or better, right? That hardly seems horrible, does it?

The article suggests that he was under stress from his family and financial situation and though it is not mentioned it suggests to me it could even be suicide. I do know that people sometimes under emotional stress can sometimes take risks that they would not normally.

My first cousins climbing partner fell to his death on a mountain after taking risks he normally would not have after getting a fatal prognosis in his cancer condition.

I see nothing that suggests it was an elitist attitude or arrogance that caused the crash. Perhaps you can point that out to me.

tbomachines · #95 04-03-2013, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Accident summary
Date July 16, 1999 (1999-07-16)
Type Pilot error
Site Atlantic Ocean, off the coast of Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts, U.S.A
41°17′37″N 70°58′39″W / 41.29367°N 70.97756°W / 41.29367; -70.97756Coordinates: 41°17′37″N 70°58′39″W / 41.29367°N 70.97756°W / 41.29367; -70.97756[1]
Passengers 2
Crew 1
Fatalities 3 (all)
Survivors 0
Aircraft type Piper PA-32R-301, Saratoga II
Operator private
Registration N9253N
Flight origin Essex County Airport, New Jersey (CDW)
Destination Martha's Vineyard Airport, Massachusetts (MVY)
On July 16, 1999, John F. Kennedy, Jr. died when the Piper Saratoga light aircraft he was piloting crashed into the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Martha's Vineyard, Massachusetts. His wife, Carolyn Bessette, and sister-in-law, Lauren Bessette, were also killed. The flight had departed from Essex County Airport (CDW) in Fairfield Township, Essex County, New Jersey. The intended flight path was along the coastline of Connecticut and across Rhode Island Sound to its final destination of Martha's Vineyard Airport (MVY).

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined the crash was caused by: "the pilot's failure to maintain control of the airplane during a descent over water at night, which was a result of spatial disorientation".[1] The NTSB and other aviation professionals also cited numerous interrelated factors that may have contributed to the crash.

[edit] Causes This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (July 2012)
[edit] Haze and visibilityHazy conditions existed on the night of the crash. Especially at night, haze can lead to spatial disorientation for pilots. Although the weather was officially listed as VFR (Visual Flight Rules), allowing Kennedy to fly his plane that night despite his lack of an instrument rating, the visibility was poor in Essex County, New Jersey, and airports along his flight path reported visibilities between 5 and 8 miles with haze and few clouds. Other pilots flying similar routes on the night of the accident reported no visual horizon while flying over the water because of haze. Also, the NTSB reported on one pilot that cancelled a similar flight that evening due to "poor" weather. The conditions near the crash site were "Clear skies at or below 12,000 feet; visibility 10 miles".[1]

[edit] Pilot experienceKennedy obtained his private pilot license in April 1998 and did not possess an instrument rating, but had received a "high performance airplane" sign-off in June 1998 and a complex airplane sign-off two months before the crash.[1] Kennedy's estimated total flight experience was about 310 hours, of which 55 hours were at night. His estimated experience flying his plane without a certified flight instructor (CFI) on board was about 72 hours. His estimated flight time in his plane was about 36 hours, of which 9.4 hours were at night. Approximately 3 hours of that flight time were without a CFI on board, and only 48 minutes of that time was flown at night, which included just one night landing.[1] Fifteen months before the crash, Kennedy had flown about 35 flights either to or from northern New Jersey and the Martha's Vineyard area. He flew more than 17 of these legs without a CFI on board, including at least five at night. His last known flight in his airplane without a CFI on board was on May 28, 1999.[1]

[edit] Pilot trainingThe CFI who prepared Kennedy for his private pilot checkride stated that he had "very good" flying skills for his level of experience. Four months before the crash, Kennedy passed the FAA's written airplane instrument examination and enrolled in an instrument rating course. He continued to receive flight instruction in New Jersey in his plane, including flights from CDW to MVY. His instructors said he required help working the rudder pedals to taxi and land the plane because of his ankle injury. During a training flight at night under instrument conditions, his instructor stated that Kennedy had the ability to fly the airplane without a visible horizon but may have had difficulty performing additional tasks under such conditions. He also stated that the pilot was not ready for an instrument evaluation, and needed additional training. The instructor at the time of the crash was not aware that Kennedy would be flying in those conditions without an instructor on board. The CFI further stated that he had talked to Kennedy on the day of the accident and offered to fly with him that night. He stated that Kennedy had the capability to conduct a night flight to Martha's Vineyard as long as a visible horizon existed.

[edit] Psychological stressThe NTSB suggested that Kennedy's marriage may have contributed to a source of stress by the time of the crash; [2] Kennedy had spent the final three nights of his life apart from his wife at a New York City hotel.[3] Additionally, Kennedy's magazine, George, was in serious financial trouble. According to the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM): "stress from everyday living can impair pilot performance, often in subtle ways. Distractions can so interfere with judgment that unwarranted risks are taken, such as flying into deteriorating weather conditions to keep on schedule".

[edit] Pilot distractionKennedy's plane flew into the path of American Airlines Flight 1484, which was on the approach to Westchester County Airport.[1] Controllers instructed the American Airlines jet to descend to avoid a collision. The two aircraft came "uncomfortably close".[3]

[edit] No flight plan or request for helpKennedy never received a weather briefing or filed a flight plan with any Flight Service Station. Except for the take-off portion of his flight, Kennedy did not contact any air traffic controllers; during the flight, he never requested help or declared an emergency.[4] Under the conditions of his flight, Kennedy was not required to file a flight plan, and although he did not, no one knew his exact route or expected time of his arrival. According to the Weather Service International, Kennedy made two weather requests before taking off. The information he was provided indicated that visibility ranged from 10 miles along his route to four miles at Martha's Vineyard.

[edit] Late departureThe flight was originally scheduled for daylight hours, but had to be postponed after Kennedy's sister-in-law was delayed at work. Heavy traffic further delayed Kennedy's flight and pushed it back until after dark. Originally planned to depart at 6:00P.M., the flight departed at 8:39P.M., nearly a half-hour past sunset. At the time of the take-off, the moon was just above the horizon and provided very little illumination.

[edit] Flight over featureless, open waterAfter passing Point Judith, Rhode Island, Kennedy's plane headed directly towards Martha's Vineyard. Instead of following the coastline of Rhode Island Sound and Buzzards Bay, which would have provided visible lights on the ground, Kennedy chose the shorter, direct path over a 30-mile (50 km) open stretch of water. According to the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, crossing large bodies of water at night may be hazardous, not only from the standpoint of ditching in the water, but also because the featureless horizon visually blends with the water, in which case depth perception and orientation become difficult.

[edit] Injured footSix weeks before the crash, Kennedy had fractured his left ankle in a paragliding accident. He had surgery, wore a cast, and walked with a cane up until the day of the accident. During interviews, Kennedy's orthopaedic surgeon stated that, by the time of the crash, he would have been able to apply the type of pressure that would normally be required to drive a car.

[edit] Wrong frequenciesWhen the NTSB examined the wreckage, they discovered that both of Kennedy's radios had incorrect frequencies selected (he had selected 127.25 for Martha Vineyard's ATIS instead of 126.25; likewise, he selected 135.25 for Essex County ATIS, but it should have been 135.5). The NTSB did not comment on the contribution this factor had in the crash, if any.[1]

The above is most of the wiki listing for the crash. Now you may be able to determine things as a pilot that I cannot from reading this.

This suggests that all the weather reports stated 10 miles visibility or better, right? That hardly seems horrible, does it?

The article suggests that he was under stress from his family and financial situation and though it is not mentioned it suggests to me it could even be suicide. I do know that people sometimes under emotional stress can sometimes take risks that they would not normally.

My first cousins climbing partner fell to his death on a mountain after taking risks he normally would not have after getting a fatal prognosis in his cancer condition.

I see nothing that suggests it was an elitist attitude or arrogance that caused the crash. Perhaps you can point that out to me.

Way too wordy. Cause of crash was obviously "Being a liberal"

t walgamuth · #96 04-03-2013, 04:30 PM

That may cut the mustard in Larryworld but most folks want more.

TimFreeh · #97 04-03-2013, 04:51 PM

And most objective people would want a bit more than your analysis Tom....

Having "10 miles of visibility" when flying in the dark over open ocean doesn't matter a bit. When there is no light and no features to aid navigation you might as well be flying under a mask. As a person that has flown a plane in broad daylight over an ocean I can tell you first hand you can lose spatial orientation even in those conditions.

He wasn't instrument rated and he flew in conditions that required an instrument rating and he died. Unfortunately two other innocent people died.

Wether it was arrogance, ignorance or incompetence I can't really say.

The idea that he was trying to commit suicide is absurd.

P.C. · #98 04-03-2013, 05:57 PM

We'll be screening the Zapruder film here later this evening if anyone is around. That JFK was too arrogantly elitist to put up the convertible top...

Air&Road · #99 04-03-2013, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

And most objective people would want a bit more than your analysis Tom....

Having "10 miles of visibility" when flying in the dark over open ocean doesn't matter a bit. When there is no light and no features to aid navigation you might as well be flying under a mask. As a person that has flown a plane in broad daylight over an ocean I can tell you first hand you can lose spatial orientation even in those conditions.

He wasn't instrument rated and he flew in conditions that required an instrument rating and he died. Unfortunately two other innocent people died.

Wether it was arrogance, ignorance or incompetence I can't really say.

The idea that he was trying to commit suicide is absurd.

Bingo!

I don't for a minute believe he knowingly committed suicide.

Tom,

Furthering what Tim pointed out, unfortunately John did not get a weather briefing. Unfortunately John very apparently THOUGHT that he could fly on instruments. Although it is possible that he did not fly into IMC, he did, as Tim pointed out, flew over water at night with obviously inadequate instrument competency. With no visible horizon, he might as well have been flying in the most dense cloud ever formed above the planet.

A couple of years ago, I attended a pilot safety seminar at Air Salvage of Dallas. This is an aircraft wrecking yard if you will. The guy who runs it, goes out and recovers the vast majority of GA accident wreckage in a large section of the US. In fact on the wall of their main hangar is the tail from Ricky Nelsons DC3 that he recovered many years ago.

This guy is an aviation accident guru that even the FAA and NTSB listens to closely. I know that they listen to him closely because my sister in law spent a number of years working for NTSB and told me all about him and how many cases on which he served as an expert witness.

During this seminar, he took us out to the crumpled wreckage of a Careflight Helicopter. He went over several wreckages explaining the circumstances. It was very sobering and there was no one there without wide open ears.

He began the description of the accident and the aircraft had flown from Galveston out over the gulf in an effort to recover someone from a boating accident offshore far enough that there was no visible horizon. The sun went down and it was pitch dark.

The pilot had a large number of hours in both fixed and rotary wing and had been instrument rated for virtually all of those years. He had kept up his instrument rating and was current, but had not flown in actual IMC in a couple of years. This was a high time, professional, instrument rated pilot with an excellent record. He lost it in the no horizon, visual conditions that Tim described.

Something tells me that John John didn't have QUITE the experience, either in total hours or instrument competency either one as did this helicopter pilot. He was flying WAY over his head, pure and simple. He obviously thought that he was instrument competent or would not have headed across there after dark.

I remember when this accident happened some 20 years ago when I was a student pilot, but hanging around lots of experienced and savvy pilots who were very well aware of the circumstances and never heard ANY of them say anything other than the fact that the guy was flying way over his head.

I have seen this accident and the accident report hashed out at LEAST a dozen times on pilot discussion forums, and I have NEVER read ANYONE that disagreed on this point.

His narcism killed him and two innocent passengers. He thought he was some hot shot instrument pilot and without re-reading the accident report, I don't think he had hardly any more time under the hood than what had been necessary for his Private.

There is a wonderful book entitled "The Killing Zone." It tells all about the common things that kill beginning pilots. Statistically the most dangerous time for a pilot is between the 50 hour and the 350 hour mark. Before 50 they are under the supervision of an instructor. After 350, they have built enough experience, again statistically, to learn to avoid the most common mistakes.

High on this list of common mistakes is flying in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) without adequate instrument competency.

I don't remember the exact number of hours he had, but John was very near the end of "the killing zone."

i am sincerely sorry that this AVOIDABLE tragedy occurred, but it did and with a different attitude it would not have, PERIOD.

BTW, the cause was not him being a liberal, it was being an elitist. Just so you know, elitests come in all political persuasions.

t walgamuth · #**100** 04-03-2013, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

Bingo!

I don't for a minute believe he knowingly committed suicide.

Tom,

Furthering what Tim pointed out, unfortunately John did not get a weather briefing. Unfortunately John very apparently THOUGHT that he could fly on instruments. Although it is possible that he did not fly into IMC, he did, as Tim pointed out, flew over water at night with obviously inadequate instrument competency. With no visible horizon, he might as well have been flying in the most dense cloud ever formed above the planet.

A couple of years ago, I attended a pilot safety seminar at Air Salvage of Dallas. This is an aircraft wrecking yard if you will. The guy who runs it, goes out and recovers the vast majority of GA accident wreckage in a large section of the US. In fact on the wall of their main hangar is the tail from Ricky Nelsons DC3 that he recovered many years ago.

This guy is an aviation accident guru that even the FAA and NTSB listens to closely. I know that they listen to him closely because my sister in law spent a number of years working for NTSB and told me all about him and how many cases on which he served as an expert witness.

During this seminar, he took us out to the crumpled wreckage of a Careflight Helicopter. He went over several wreckages explaining the circumstances. It was very sobering and there was no one there without wide open ears.

He began the description of the accident and the aircraft had flown from Galveston out over the gulf in an effort to recover someone from a boating accident offshore far enough that there was no visible horizon. The sun went down and it was pitch dark.

The pilot had a large number of hours in both fixed and rotary wing and had been instrument rated for virtually all of those years. He had kept up his instrument rating and was current, but had not flown in actual IMC in a couple of years. This was a high time, professional, instrument rated pilot with an excellent record. He lost it in the no horizon, visual conditions that Tim described.

Something tells me that John John didn't have QUITE the experience, either in total hours or instrument competency either one as did this helicopter pilot. He was flying WAY over his head, pure and simple. He obviously thought that he was instrument competent or would not have headed across there after dark.

I remember when this accident happened some 20 years ago when I was a student pilot, but hanging around lots of experienced and savvy pilots who were very well aware of the circumstances and never heard ANY of them say anything other than the fact that the guy was flying way over his head.

I have seen this accident and the accident report hashed out at LEAST a dozen times on pilot discussion forums, and I have NEVER read ANYONE that disagreed on this point.

His narcism killed him and two innocent passengers. He thought he was some hot shot instrument pilot and without re-reading the accident report, I don't think he had hardly any more time under the hood than what had been necessary for his Private.

There is a wonderful book entitled "The Killing Zone." It tells all about the common things that kill beginning pilots. Statistically the most dangerous time for a pilot is between the 50 hour and the 350 hour mark. Before 50 they are under the supervision of an instructor. After 350, they have built enough experience, again statistically, to learn to avoid the most common mistakes.

High on this list of common mistakes is flying in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) without adequate instrument competency.

I don't remember the exact number of hours he had, but John was very near the end of "the killing zone."

i am sincerely sorry that this AVOIDABLE tragedy occurred, but it did and with a different attitude it would not have, PERIOD.

BTW, the cause was not him being a liberal, it was being an elitist. Just so you know, elitests come in all political persuasions.

If you read the article you would see that he had 310 hours.

My father used to sell a lot of auto insurance. He said the insurance companies know that a very high percentage of single car accidents are actually suicides but they cannot prove it. So it is not absurd, I don't think.

So you both feel that he was arrogant and perhaps elitist, but from reading the Wikipedia that does not come across to me. It comes across to me that it was an avoidable accident. He flew out not knowing how bad the conditions were, had the radio frequencies wrong so presumably had no communications available, perhaps believing the radio was broken. It certainly seems within the realm of being a tragic accident not necessarily an arrogant act.

cmbdiesel · #**101** 04-03-2013, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

Regardless of where John John got his "my shlt don't stink" attitude, it killed him and two innocent passengers.

BS

NYC99MA178

cmbdiesel · #**102** 04-03-2013, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

Pilot error due to EXTREME, to a point of idiotic, overconfidence. Typical of such elitests.

BS -

NYC99MA178

cmbdiesel · #**103** 04-03-2013, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

Silliness Paul? Do you think that a persons elitest attitude making him fly incapably into real Instrument Meteorological Conditions, illegally I might add, costing his life and the lives of two innocent people is something to laugh at?

BS -

NYC99MA178

The noninstrument-rated pilot obtained weather forecasts for a cross-country flight, which indicated visual flight rules (VFR) conditions with clear skies and visibilities that varied between 4 to 10 miles along his intended route.

cmbdiesel · #**104** 04-03-2013, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

And most objective people would want a bit more than your analysis Tom....

Having "10 miles of visibility" when flying in the dark over open ocean doesn't matter a bit. When there is no light and no features to aid navigation you might as well be flying under a mask. As a person that has flown a plane in broad daylight over an ocean I can tell you first hand you can lose spatial orientation even in those conditions.

He wasn't instrument rated and he flew in conditions that required an instrument rating and he died. Unfortunately two other innocent people died.

Wether it was arrogance, ignorance or incompetence I can't really say.

The idea that he was trying to commit suicide is absurd.

Incorrect.

NYC99MA178

Air&Road · #**105** 04-03-2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

If you read the article you would see that he had 310 hours.

My father used to sell a lot of auto insurance. He said the insurance companies know that a very high percentage of single car accidents are actually suicides but they cannot prove it. So it is not absurd, I don't think.

So you both feel that he was arrogant and perhaps elitist, but from reading the Wikipedia that does not come across to me. It comes across to me that it was an avoidable accident. He flew out not knowing how bad the conditions were, had the radio frequencies wrong so presumably had no communications available, perhaps believing the radio was broken. It certainly seems within the realm of being a tragic accident not necessarily an arrogant act.

Yes I had read it, but when I was writing about the killing zone I did not remember if it was over or under 350, but I remembered it was 3 something.

Tom, he was flying over his head. The report and circumstances CLEARLY indicate that. I am sorry that it happened and that it happened to someone that you obviously can't come to grips with him being fallible, but he obviously was.

The report even clearly states that he experienced spatial disorientation. In instrument training it is DRILLED into your head to trust your instruments. The reason for that is so that you can fly in the event of spatial disorientation. If he had been instrument competent, he could have flown while experiencing it.

I know you think that I'm just some idiot, but this is the truth.