The 2nd Amendment - Page 14 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmbdiesel · #**196** 06-29-2014, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyb

Where do guns help people fight the government? Places like Syria and Libya and Iraq. If we ever got to that point, I think the constitution would be the last of anyone's worries.

Valid point.

However, the foil hat crowd sees any attempt at regulating firearms as a continuation down the slippery slope to the all out gun ban and confiscation...
Which, if it happened, would in fact leave us with no way to fight back.
Of course, the round up of guns could never occur, as there are not enough agents to get all the guns before the owners took action.

elchivito · #**197** 06-29-2014, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Of course, the round up of guns could never occur, as there are not enough agents to get all the guns before the owners took action.

Precisely why it won't ever happen.

cmbdiesel · #**198** 06-29-2014, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Precisely why it won't ever happen.

Yep, the only way it could happen would be total subjugation of the citizenry by military forces.

Botnst · #**199** 06-29-2014, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyb

I would argue that in a representative government, what protects the guarantees of the constitution are an intact legal system, a robust public discourse and knowledgable electorate. Which, in my mind, makes the first amendment the most important amendment.

In this country's history, at least, the second amendment has played an inconsequential role in the enforcement of constitutional rights on the part of individual citizens or citizen groups. It was not a major player in women's suffrage, in gaining blacks the right to vote or to remove segregation in schools, in affirming a woman's right to choose abortion, or in expanding the rights of gays to marry. Or any other major constitutional question of the last 200 years. And I don't think a bunch of individuals owning guns is going to be the route by which we dismantle the NSA's mass surveillance apparatus.

If anything, the proliferation of firearms has made it possible (but also necessary, because guns are SO prolific) to protect citizens from EACH OTHER.

Where do guns help people fight the government? Places like Syria and Libya and Iraq. If we ever got to that point, I think the constitution would be the last of anyone's worries.

Germany had a representative democracy and elected an unusual character who really liked gun control. I cannot think of any dictator or totalitarians state in the history of firearms who defended unregistered private ownership of firearms. It would be interesting to know which, if any, did.

On the other hand, history is replete with governments incrementally disarming its citizens and then later, abusing them.

To your last bit: No amount of armament will create a revolution. No amount of armament can prevent one.

Botnst · #**200** 06-29-2014, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Yep, the only way it could happen would be total subjugation of the citizenry by military forces.

And that's never happened to a democracy?

elchivito · #**201** 06-29-2014, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

And that's never happened to a democracy?

Of course it has, but has it happened to a democracy with 300 million guns in private hands?

HuskyMan · #**202** 06-29-2014, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Yep, the only way it could happen would be total subjugation of the citizenry by military forces.

Governments run tests on test subjects to see how far they can push the test subjects. During Hurricane Katrina, Lousianians were tested to see how far they could be pushed. Apparently, when faced with a badged uniform ordering them to give up their guns, they complied.

Hurricane Katrina Door to Door Firearms Confiscation - YouTube

further proof both of you are WRONG; when given the order they will kick your front door down and seize anything they want to seize. Meanwhile, the local gangs will take note of the government agents confiscating your guns and will subsequently step up their criminal activities against you, your family and your neighbors:

NRA: The Untold Story of Gun Confiscation After Katrina - YouTube

Botnst · #**203** 06-29-2014, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Of course it has, but has it happened to a democracy with 300 million guns in private hands?

EXACTLY!

anthonyb · #**204** 06-30-2014, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Germany had a representative democracy and elected an unusual character who really liked gun control. I cannot think of any dictator or totalitarians state in the history of firearms who defended unregistered private ownership of firearms. It would be interesting to know which, if any, did.

On the other hand, history is replete with governments incrementally disarming its citizens and then later, abusing them.

To your last bit: No amount of armament will create a revolution. No amount of armament can prevent one.

History is replete with examples of governments good and bad, but arguably the difference isn't whether those societies were gun owning societies but rather the character and quality of the people leading and participating in them. The German example has less to do with guns than it has to do with the ability of disaffected masses being manipulated by a charismatic sociopath into a totalitarian government. Something that even (or, given the mentality of many gun owners today, especially) the United States is vulnerable to.

There are plenty of stable, non gun owning societies around the world today where people enjoy essentially the same liberties we do.

Botnst · #**205** 06-30-2014, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyb

...
There are plenty of stable, non gun owning societies around the world today where people enjoy essentially the same liberties we do.

Of course there are good citizens who don't own guns: Gun ownership doesn't endow one with mystical powers. Nor does gun ownership prevent a totalitarian state. Nor does gun registration prevent crime. Etc, ad nauseum. It's a tool invented for a single purpose, death, and it accomplishes that purpose most efficaciously in the hands of those who practice with it most often.

Being a rather simple tool, it doesn't take a genius or an athlete to operate it. A genius, an athlete, a lonely old widow and a legless cripple are equal.

And en masse, owners of these single purpose tools are better equipped to protect themselves from anybody who might wish to do them harm than people who are not thus equipped.

HuskyMan · #**206** 06-30-2014, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Of course there are good citizens who don't own guns: Gun ownership doesn't endow one with mystical powers. Nor does gun ownership prevent a totalitarian state. Nor does gun registration prevent crime. Etc, ad nauseum. It's a tool invented for a single purpose, death, and it accomplishes that purpose most efficaciously in the hands of those who practice with it most often.

Being a rather simple tool, it doesn't take a genius or an athlete to operate it. A genius, an athlete, a lonely old widow and a legless cripple are equal.

And en masse, owners of these single purpose tools are better equipped to protect themselves from anybody who might wish to do them harm than people who are not thus equipped.

I believe you hit the nail on the head. If the people possess the means to defend themselves from those who wish them harm, they do not have the need to "dial 911 and wait". Government agents (the police) do not like this because if you possess the means to defend yourself and your family, they are not needed. So, how do the police make da** sure you need them when faced with thugs? The answer is obvious: take your guns from you which FORCES you to dial 911 and request police assistance when thugs, gang bangers and the like bang on your door (in some cases they kick your door down and make themselves welcome in your home).

I want you to want ME (only in this deal I will FORCE you to want me)

Cheap Trick - "I Want You To Want Me": SXSW Music 2010 - YouTube

For more information concerning forced confiscation of firearms, see my post above.......obviously they are not only willing to take your guns they WILL take them, come he** or high water. Now, on your knees and kiss my signet ring......

HuskyMan · #**207** 06-30-2014, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyb

History is replete with examples of governments good and bad, but arguably the difference isn't whether those societies were gun owning societies but rather the character and quality of the people leading and participating in them. The German example has less to do with guns than it has to do with the ability of disaffected masses being manipulated by a charismatic sociopath into a totalitarian government. Something that even (or, given the mentality of many gun owners today, especially) the United States is vulnerable to.

There are plenty of stable, non gun owning societies around the world today where people enjoy essentially the same liberties we do.

Sadly the very nature of government is to lean towards doing bad, not doing good. Some even characterize government's nature as "evil". In addition, man, by his very nature, is BAD.

A gun represents power, as in power to the people, something government isn't too fond of because THEY want all the power. Think sociopaths he** bent on wresting power from the people and giving it to themselves......

TheDon · #**208** 06-30-2014, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Yep, the only way it could happen would be total subjugation of the citizenry by military forces.

I will go down guns a blazing.

HuskyMan · #**209** 06-30-2014, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

I will go down guns a blazing.

Interesting; one of the very few people in New Orleans during the Hurricane Katrina debacle who did not have his guns confiscated was a local lawyer. He made an appearance on local television and announced they could take his guns when they pried them from his cold dead fingers. After that announcement, the cops left him alone.

Apparently, most everyone else gave them up with out a struggle. I surrender, here's my white flag.

elchivito · #**210** 06-30-2014, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

Apparently, most everyone else gave them up with out a struggle. I surrender, here's my white flag.

There wasn't widespread confiscation of personal firearms in NOLA. This is a handy myth put forth by the paranoid. The personal account linked below is only one of many which dispels this silly fairy tale. They're out there if you want to find them.

Yes, guns were taken, but with my own eyes, the overwhelming majority of those criminal and unethical acts, which is still a small number, were done by out of state LEO and military. These military members were primarily 18-21 year old reservists who thought they were coming down to help fill sandbags and clean roadways, but were instead thrust into law enforcement roles with little training and even less leadership.

Among the bad eggs of the group, there was this mentality that grew out of the lack of accountability that I call the “Vegas Mentality” where they realized no one really knew who they were and the lack of command and control meant there was no real accountability. For those whose moral compass had began to wander, the environment created a “wild west” atmosphere. There were a couple of agencies that were thanked for their assistance and politely asked to go home. It was primarily these bad eggs, along with a couple of NOPD officers, who we see in the YouTube videos.

There were also a couple of individuals acting alone at some of the checkpoints. I know I encountered countless people with firearms and did not confiscate a single one, neither did any officer I knew or worked with. The only time firearms were seized were when someone was arrested for a crime—no different than before the rain.

Truth be told, that was the basic ROE if you will, for my agency and those I encountered, including the over 200 or so federal agents that were based out of our department for several weeks –

“Guys, BE SMART. BE SAFE. BE POLITE. People are in bad places physically, mentally, and financially. Do not push people, but do not allow yourself to be pushed. We operate under the same rules and policies as before the storm—only with fewer resources. If you would not have seized a firearm as evidence of a crime or incident to an arrest, don’t take it now.”

As it related to “looting” by the police, we were instructed that if the integrity of the building had been compromised by the storm, to go in and take what we needed, but do not make entry into secured buildings. We also had permission from the local supermarkets, Academy Sports, and several other businesses to take whatever we wanted for our use and to distribute to the community. That was immensely helpful.

National Guardsmen taking a break.

I am paraphrasing the basic theme of our morning briefings before we headed out to countless looting calls, death calls from people suffocating, killing themselves, gunfire calls, etc. It also helped tremendously that our leadership made a decision to have all non-local LEO work static checkpoints and positions while those of us familiar with the areas, and most importantly the people, handled patrol and calls. Having some State Trooper from NY try and deal with a hot, hungry, and tired Cajun from the bayou is a recipe for chaos.

After the first couple weeks, many of the people arrested for looting were National Guard people. New Orleans had National Guard “troops”, basically young reservists serving their 2-week active time each year patrolling the streets in fully marked patrol cars for 2-YEARS! This was a huge problem, and I personally had to deal with them on traffic stops and various other calls. They simply were not trained or experienced to deal with the role they were thrust into.

Cops and Gun Control and following orders and keeping oaths and…

I have been fortunate enough to train, and train with, thousands of police officers across this country, all strata of jurisdiction, regional idiosyncrasies, and mindsets. I can tell you unequivocally that the OVERWELMING number of police officers will not take firearms from US citizens. Period.

Katrina