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  #1  
Old 09-25-2017, 05:02 PM
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crystals growing in the basement of a potential house purchase

I saw a house over the weekend that was built in the 1920s. It's at an intersection with both roads running away from the house slightly downhill. And it has mineral efflorescence in the basement. I didn't see any mould anywhere in the basement or wet spots but I was there in autumn on a warm day with no rain.

All the floors throughout the house were even and the interior hasn't been renovated in at least 50 years. In some rooms, it hasn't been touched for a lot longer. But there are no cracks or bulges anywhere in the plaster or paint. Door frames areas are fine, staircase was fine, so on. Most floors had carpeting or vinyl roll-out lino which is a common thing in these older untouched houses around these parts.

There was a black mould on the north exterior wall of a small room on the second floor across the hallway from the bathroom. That bathroom just has a window for a vent, so I wasn't sure if it was steam moving across the hall or if it was where moisture from the basement was ending up (or both, I suppose). If the house is bought, the mouldy room might be converted to a second bathroom with a shower and a vent, which would hopefully solve part of the vapor problem.

The attic has nothing between the interior and the terracotta roof tiles. You can touch the underside of the tiles from inside the house. No insulation, nothing. So I'm wondering if this is one of those older houses meant to "breathe" to prevent rising damp or channel it or whatever. There's a seriously steep pitch to the roof, it goes down to the first floor so the roof reaches down across two floors (attic and first). There were the little gaps between the roof tiles to allow breathing but the attic was easily 10コ warmer than the rest of the house. Dusty as well with exposed beams and lino brocade patterned floor and a creepy 1930s mannequin in the corner too with a musty yellowed dress, if you must know. Anyway, no mould in the attic. I didn't check the beams but I didn't see anything weird.

Back to the basement. It had some efflorescence on the walls for sure, but it especially had it on the ground and forming around anything that was touching the ground (like an old wine barrel) or some other stuff. It was a bit less than this. I suppose it could just be 90 years build up?



I'm not interested in sealing it because it seems like sealants just delaminate or stain, so what's the point? I'm really just curious if anyone has any experience with this in older houses and how you prevent it from getting worse. I'd rather not run a dehumidifier 24/7. I just want to know if the cellar can be cleaned out and then if more salts formation can be prevented. The current owners have all the shelving in the basement on tile stilts to keep it off the salts which is no way to live!

Mr. Benza tells me that apparently the greatest wine cellars have sheets of black mould on the walls from the humidity and that humidity is great for wine. So if nothing happened with the basement humidity he'd probably just take it as an excuse to buy too much wine and then he wouldn't share. Any and all advice or insight appreciated.

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Old 09-25-2017, 05:18 PM
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My experience is that this is always caused by moisture behind or under the concrete. You may need to install a French drain and sump to correct it, or it may be that you have to expose and waterproof the basement walls, or both.

Black mold on the inside suggests an urgent need to tear down the wall in question and see what's behind it. Do it for health reasons if nothing else. It could be inadequate insulation, failed vapor barrier, or poor caulking has allowed cold air infiltration.

Isn't there another house that would interest you? I love old houses. But if you aren't ready for it, the challenge stops being fun really fast.
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Old 09-25-2017, 06:19 PM
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I think you should hire a professional to inspect the house so that you will know whether these problems can be easily fixed or fixed at all and whether there are other major problems with the house. I don't think long distance advice will be very helpful.

In northern Virginia where I live, house sales contracts typically provide for a housing inspection to determine whether the house meets building code and other legal requirements. When they do not, buyers can demand that the problems be fixed and can back out of the contract if sellers refuse to fix them. There are lots of inspectors who buyers can hire for these inspection. Typically, inspectors have been contractors or have worked in the building trades or in a government code enforcement office.

If you don't have inspectors where you are, find someone who repairs or renovates older houses and ask him or her to perform an inspection and give you a report with ball park figures on repairs or renovations that are needed. An inspection by a professional will be money well spent.
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Old 09-26-2017, 02:33 AM
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Thank you both for your thoughts. I've never seen this before so I was a little baffled.

The house is in France and my mother is thinking about retiring there, it's for her. I live over the border in Switzerland so it'd be easier for us to see each other. She's pretty specific about the area she wants to live in and some other things, so the search is pretty much within one neighbourhood of one city. And she's picky about how the inside should look, so it's always made more sense for us to buy run-down houses and fix them up after we move in. We've done two before but never anything with structural problems and we don't want that.

So under the French system there are lots of legally required inspections and legal searches, and we were planning to hire an English speaking inspector anyway too. Seems like the sooner, the better!

I realized after posting btw that the basement rooms against the garden (instead of pavers and a party wall) are the worst affected, so french drains probably would help. I've just never seen efflorescence before. I looked at our photos again and it's not as bad in the prospective house as that photo I linked, but it's still there...

Thanks again!
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Old 09-26-2017, 07:03 AM
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I wouldn't worry about the efflorescence. I'd just vacuum up the powdery stuff and move on.

The total lack of insulation though would be a matter of concern. I'd agree to get a local inspection. Perhaps there is insulation in a place you didn't see. What is the construction of the walls, floors and ceilings (structurally)?

Original construction here would not be likely to have much if any insulation in the 20s.
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Old 09-26-2017, 09:19 AM
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I think it's cinderblock with coarse render on the inside and roughcast on the exterior. Exterior walls are about a foot thick, which would fit with concrete block construction. In the EU houses that go up for sale have to be advertised with an energy rating, and this one gets a D (the scale is A-G).

The loadbearing walls are too thick to be brick with a cavity imo, so I'm wondering if they could also be cinderblock and then some plaster.

The floors are mostly wood planking under carpet or lino. One room has oak herringbone parquet. The kitchen and entryway stairs have polished concrete while the ground floor landing is checkerboard crimson and ivory tiles.

I did some more reading about damp and now I think the first order of business would be re-opening the chimney stack which was sealed up. I wonder if closing it prevented some of the old school ventilation from working and helping ease any damp. There's also a gutter spout (shaped like a serpents face!) that's probably spitting water too close to the building. I'll wait for an inspector to say for sure what's going on, of course.

Inside the roof looks a little like this and this. This is the third one I've seen that's like this. It's just wood beams, some joists, and tile over that. A wooden plank floor with lino on top. Incredible!
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Old 09-26-2017, 02:43 PM
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I have an attic in my house that looks something like the attic in your pictures, except the roof does not have tiles. There are plywood boards that form the roof on top of the frame and asphalt shingles on top of the boards.

The insulation in my attic is for the rooms below the floor of the attic, not for the attic itself. The insulation is placed under the attic floor on top of the material that forms the ceiling of the room below. My attic is not suitable as living space. It is hot in the summer and cold in the winter. I use if for storage of things that are not sensitive to changes in temperature. The rooms below are well insulated and cozy in winter.
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Old 09-26-2017, 08:11 PM
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i live in an old place and run two dehumidifiers in my basement which would otherwise be at 90% humidity and start rot.

I would not be worried about having to install a dehumidifier if you bought this place, the technology for them is way better than the old days of running down there and dumping water, and waiting for it to fill back up with the thing running constantly unless you shut it off.

Both my dehumidifiers have integral pumps and sensors that lead to a drain connection. They are mostly off. When the sensor drops below the desired humidity, they kick on, collect water, and pump themselves dry. I haven't touched either of them in 2 years. The newer ones are truly plug in and forget about items these days. I have two of them because I have a horseshoe shaped basement and a single one could never really address the entire basement
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Old 09-26-2017, 09:02 PM
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Crystals generally form when a dissolved mineral is exposed to air and the moisture evaporates, leaving the mineral behind. It’s probably a sodium or potassium salt. Might be a leaking drainpipe outside or maybe this is a coastal home?

JB3 offers a useful corrective measure for moisture, though the crystals will return. So do what Tom said and shopvac them when they get obnoxious.
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Old 09-26-2017, 09:06 PM
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I should add that niter is a crystalline chemical often found in dungeons. Might want to look that one up as to origin.

If the house site had previously been a stockyard or privy then it increases the likelihood that the crystals are niter.

FYI, niter is a constituent of gunpowder.

Last edited by Botnst; 09-27-2017 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 09-26-2017, 11:21 PM
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Its hard to retro insulate concrete block I think. Again, a local inspector would know at a glance what the construction is.

I can only guess on the floor and wall constructions. The picture of the inside of the roof reveals a very strong looking construction with evidence of skillful and careful installation of the clay tile.
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Old 10-06-2017, 06:52 AM
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I've had a lot going on at work and with a new move (5th time in 5 years!) but I wanted to pop back in and say I'd seen these replies and they are really generous and helpful and awesome. Thank you guys for your input! I mean it, real peace of mind here.

I think, unless someone else scoops the house up or an inspection goes horribly wrong, we'll end up buying it. Exciting times ahead! I think I'll end up painting it.
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Old 10-06-2017, 10:20 AM
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Back then no perimeter drains leading to a sump pump or lower elevation where probably common. I am well out of my depth but it might also be a very wet basement seasonally.

You noted things in the basement were elevated as well and this is another probable indication. Fixable if true but cost depends on several unknown factors presently.

As a general rule you do not want to live with a really wet basement even if only seasonably. Breaking the floor and bringing it up to better conditions. Will have to include waterproofing the walls. This can be done internally today. It may even be cheaper and easier to do it externally.

Also this is not southern France I think. Or I may have my European geography wrong in my mind. Totally uninsulated may not be the best ideal. Could be cold as a witches tit if you can excuse the old expression.

What is the current heating system? Electrical resistance or heat pump as north America was very slow to adopt heat pumps. To me this always reeked like not allowing diesel cars into north America. Europe was flooded with them when we had essentially none. You stated the chimney was closed.

The mold in that second floor room could just be the door was kept closed during cold weather to conserve heat. Your local home inspector type there may be the best guide. I assume the price is right so there may be some room to deal with a few things. Old windows are also seldom tight.

On the other hand I may be overdoing it. If the attic shows no signs of insulation I would almost have to conclude the temperature where this house is seldom drops really low. Based on the common knowledge that so much heat escapes through our ceilings it is usually done if the need if there. Either in a retrofit or otherwise.


Also electrically if any indication is there a rework is needed unless the wires are surface run could get expensive. I would like to see a good home inspector type of persons report posted just out of curiosity. Then if the plumbing is original may also have to bear a serious examination.

Not being negative at all. All these things have to be considerations.

Incidentally it was nice of you to post this. Unfortunatly I am unfamiliar with the general situation there. Structurally the place is probably strong to bear the weight of a tile roof though.

I keep getting this feeling that the place must be located in a fairly moderate climate. Yet I think there is snow in your current country each year that is nearby.

In any event I hope your mother lands up happy in a new location. France from all I have heard is a very desirable country to live in.
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Old 10-08-2017, 05:44 PM
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I spend a lot of time in France, not to far from the Swiss border (Morzine).
The white stuff on the floor could be just chalk.
The water there was always opaque, mountain water has a lot of chalk.

Be careful with Lino, in the past they often used asbestos for the base.
Do not try to remove it before you have it checked.

Dealing with French contractors can be a challenge, they are not as punctual as the Swiss.


Rob
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Old 10-08-2017, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
I should add that niter is a crystalline chemical often found in dungeons. Might want to look that one up as to origin.

If the house site had previously been a stockyard or privy then it increases the likelihood that the crystals are niter.

FYI, niter is a constituent of gunpowder.
What ever you do, don't drink the iced tea!

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