Reliability should be a large factor... so you prefer to drive the best looking car, let's say, and have it leave you stranded once in a while, have electric bugs here and there, have to pay $400 for a center console, have to depend on your freinds to pick you up from the mechanic in their Hondas, Nissans, and Toyotas, each month it breaks down (of course just "little" glitches). How do you feel that your car has been broken down, more times than all your freinds' jap cars COMBINED?

Of course, each "little glitch" is always $300-$700.... :behead:

In my case, I did the math. I have had my car for 2 1/2 years, combined service / repairs averaged $140-$150 / month... I just said "f>uck it" if I just add another $100 / month, some down payment, equity on the car, and not worry about having the next "issue" come up.

Did I love my car? Yeah, we all do, that is why we're on this forum, that is why we put up with the **** of these cars.... My conclusion on my second mercedes and having it for the time I did is the following: These cars are for weekend only, you have to have a second car to drive while you work out the glitches in the next problem, check online for possibel resolution, trouble shoot etc on the weekend, or just lease/buy new.... Come on who are we kidding? These were $40K + cars when new, and now we are just "wanna be's"....

I am happy I am out of my E320 and driving Japanese. I have been eyeing the Lexus down the road, we'll see. Mercedes just rides on the brand and that is what sells.... A prestige thing (ie rolex, mercedes, corvette, harley davidson) ... OBVIOUSLY, NONE of these are best in their class, but society likes to show off and be seen with these "status" symbols....

My shop summed it up twice, once this week and last year at one point. I asked him, what model or year bmw/mercedes should I stick with to avoid these issues (I dont' think my car was a lemon, as it didn't have any more issues than what I see here for the most part)..... he said, "listen, they all have issues, if you want to drive 200K miles with no problem, you have to go with Toyota or Honda..."... This is someone who makes money on me and all the other MB / BMW owners, so it behoves him to see me drive more German cars....

I do give it to BMW/MB... they have the best fit, ride, metal, feel solid, etc... around.. the lexus and Infiinity metal feels like a coke can but they are Japanese and more reliable....

Cheers and have fun fixing you Mercedes :P

the lexus and Infiinity metal feels like a coke can.......



That's simply not true.

I have taken delivery of a brand new 07 Lexus RX350 the other day. It sure is a sweet ride. Sweeter than a can of coca cola :D

Although I don't totally disagree with that point, I feel the need to defend myself and my 126. There are some of us who are capable of buying a new Benz, but prefer the older, more technologically uncomplicated models. Stylistically, IMHO, the 126 is the last of the traditional Benz-looking Benzes. My current 1991 has never stranded me, nor had my previous 126, nor has my 107. That's about 15 years of motoring. I consider that to be comparable to Japanese dependability. The older Benzes are expensive as hell to maintain, but quite predictable and dependable.

Moreover, how about those poor (possibly wealthy) souls who paid $60K to $120K for new Benzes that are giving them the blues now? Certainly you can't consider them to be wannabes. "Betrayed", may be a better description.

I have it on good authority that since the "merger", and the shift in management, quality control has become priority one at Daimler-Benz, as mandated by Dr. "Mustache" in the commercials. Owner complaints have been received and heeded. Judging by Car and Driver, the 2007 Benzes are testing favorably against other high end models, performance-wise. That was not the case 2-3 years ago. We'll see in a few years whether the quality control initiatives have taken hold.

My '96 E320 has both notorious problems of W210 (1) rusty spring perch, fixed and paid 100% my a MB dealer at 71K miles (2) head gasket leaks at 78K miles, paid $1711 out of my own pocket to have it fix. This is not what I have expected for a $50K car... I gave MB a chance, but it failed to have me back as a repeated customer. I will keep current MB until I throw it away (250K+ miles, I hope). This is my first MB and will be my last. I will be going back to my Japanese quality , i.e. Lexus... My '87 Camry has 195K miles without a single problem , only scheduled maintenance. My son's '97 Maxima has 120K miles and still going strong, My friend at work has almost 300K miles on his '96 Maxima, without problems with head gasket, transmission, rusty spring perches... What else do you want? Maybe boring but you can't beat reliability

Well to each his own. I had '90 300E from 100K to 175K. '92 300E from 113K to current 244K. In the total of 206,000 miles there was only 1 instance of being stranded. Now these miles were 95% interstate and travels were long trips all over the Eastern U. S.
There were more than a few replacements of normal wear items.

Now these were not the first years of new model, bad idea generally. They were also not highly computerized. I did a fair amount, but not all of the maintenance work on them. The only thing that almost caused me to switch was the A/C system which went out several times. If my experience had been that I couldn't count on the cars, I would have been done with them.

Operating cost was a consideration. My starting assumption was, and is, that I am not going to sit in a Toyota for hours on end and mile after mile. Therefore, my choice is a car payment of over a grand a month for something I like, or a paid off 100K mile Mercedes with the maintenance cost.

So now I have recently gotten the '97 S320 with 109K, now 115K. Note last three years of model run. The car has full dealer service records so I know where I'm starting. We will see how it goes.

I also stand by my statements about style, status, etc. If they weren't valid reasons for purchasing decision, then Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Land Rover would sell no cars. I have great skepticism about reliability surveys.

Steve

My former mechanic (I had an Infiniti G20 back in the day) owned a '94 Maxima that had over 500,000 miles on the odometer.

It was virtually trouble-free. He used to brag that the head had never been removed for work of any kind. Original head gasket. All he had done is routine maintenance and timing belts.

Nissan sure makes a good V6 engine.

AFAIK there is no timing belt on that engine. Maxima's are ok except the new ones, those are junk. Oh and the torque steer will surprise you if you don't expect it, FWD cars suck.

Mercedes owners should be wealthy or mechanics . I bought my E 320 wagon used with 87K on a 94 . My wealthy neighbor liked mine and got a brand new E320 05-06 500 miles on it , some transmission problem , under warranty installed a new trans. 100 miles later some shift issues over night in the shop.

One fellow said figure $2000 a year on average if you go to a dealer , seems high . I figure once they make 10 k most of the new problems are done , at 100 - 130k is the next run of water pumps - AC fixes - seat motor switches - head gaskets - auto. transmission plates /discs. After that 170K on they just keep going or people don't care as much.

I like the ride, seats , Steel quality , Paint , safety . Yes I am a mech.

You hit the nail on the head.

On my 1993 300E (3.2), at somewhere between 127,000 and 135,000 miles, I had to replace the head gasket, water pump, air pump (pulley rebuild kit), throttle actuator, flex discs, and some other parts that I can't remember.

Wouldn't they think of running enough simulatinos and road tests before putting it on the market and letting the consumer road test it for them to be best? I mean, that iiisssss what the Japanese do don't they?

I think you keep seeing high mileage MBs on the road b/c , like you said, the steel quaility, paint, etc... keeps it together. They stay in pretty good "visual' condition... so you keep putting money into it....as I did as well... but look how many fixes you listed.... that shouldn't be the case...

bought a new car with no ppi...
 

"you hit the nail on the head" :D so either they are pieces of **** and you need to be working on them all the time or you need to buy new... btw, as you also said, new doesn't mean perfect.... go on any given day to a mb dealer and talk to the customers... the cars are full of little bugs.

I used to read the low ratings , such as consumer reports, edmunds, etc... and used to think "ahh they just are too picky..".... I was wrong , they were right...

I just traded in my 95 e320.... I bought a 4Runner....a used one.... funny thing is, I bought at night, test drove it a bit, asked "where do I sign?".... how many times on here do you hear, "DON"T buy a used mb without a ppi" , "don't buy a used mb without maintainance records" , "don't buy a used MB from one of those hole in the wall dealerhships".... "don't buy without having the mb dealer pull all the maintainance for you", "buy only a certified car', "buy extended warranty".. I DID all the opposite of the above ;) ... I didn't have to worry if they already "changed the evaporator, changed the head gasket, changed the wiring harness, changed the ignition modules"... wait, you only need to worry about that on the German luxury brand that costs $50K+ brand new...:behead:

My conclusion? MBs are awsome to ride in and drive....but buy new. As I said previously, if you can't afford new, then don't be a wanna be and drive a used mercedes... MB should sell them like they sell the disposable cameras.. One use and return.... you use it for 2-3 years and return it... wait , that's a lease, LOL... then the next su..c.ker who buys it used gets hosed...

I originally bought the car for me to work on it, but circumstances led me not to go down that road....but even if you work on it "ALL the time" it shouldn't have to be that way....

I'll still be around, but mercedes-less.... :cool:

MB reliability
 

Just traded my 10 year old C280 Sport for an E550. The C280 had 100 K miles on it and I never once took it to a dealer for service. I did most minimal service myself. Car never ever let me down, It was the best of about 30 cars I have owned. As far as I am concerned, don't trouble unless trouble trouble troubles you. The C280 was perfect and in the few miles I have driven my E550, it seems to be well done. BTY, I'm the only driver and never trust a dealer to service my cars. What say you?

YES MBZ are way to troublesome for the money. Back in the early part of last century, when car had hand cranks and magnetos, they were ALL troublesome. Really great cars seem to come from Japan ,Korea, Sweden, US made Japan designs, but not from MBZ anymore. I bet they still make and sell poorly soldered OVP relays that fail just like the original ones did. When MBZ (or was it Bosch) bid out parts production all over Europe, Asia, Mexico and South America, and ignored quality implications--they fell way way down in resulting reliability of the assembled car.

Intrested in getting a 4matic MB since I have to deal with the snow when the season is here, my current e class rear wheel drive tranny really sucks big time in the snow and in the rain. I hear there are alot of problems with the 4matic transmission, what are the problems with the 4matic tranny, from common to rare?

If thats what I have in my ML320 then I can tell you..flawless performance for 130,000 miles on origional fluid. The 99 ML320 performed perfect in our January Blizzard here in Michigan.

Status is something that can't be achieved driving a car, many drug dealers drive around in MB, Lexux etc. would that deter me from buying those cars, never, but I would'nt be buying it to achieve status for sure. I will buy a car for what it stands for, if it fits my principles, I will buy it if its within my reach.

a Benz will ALWAYS require more care and money cause the creation of each model may be advance in technology but CERTAINLY one of the worst quality.

over all over kill.
 

worst quality ?
I would not go that far. Maybe in electronic's.
In the few previous decades, the 70's 80's and 90's when the Japan cars were often called Jap Crap, and the FORDS Fix Or Repair Daily's
The Mercedes were not rusted out in Michigan like My Ford tarus, my accord and my Legend. ( After 8 years for Honda 3 for the Ford ) Here in the 21th Century the sheet medal is still thicker on a Mercedes than nearly all the rest.

So anyone want to buy Chysler ? Hear the Germans are giving up on it.

Flawless? You sound like me a few month ago... :P Looking at your sig and posts you have had issues with your MB....

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/search.php?searchid=1174765

I wouldn't call it "care"... its more "trouble" / "fix" / "repair"... i was under the MB drug for the time I had them (went through two), and then realized, B.S. They are a p.o.s. unless you buy new and the "issues" are curved a little, but not eliminated...

I haven't had a headache with mines for ???... wait, i sold it that's why, LOL.. I love them though and as I said before, unless you can buy NEW, you are (as I was) a "wanna be"... MB's should be disposable...once out of warranty dump them...

Sorry, but in the 80s and 90s Japan cars were not jap crap.. Do you have documentation of this statement? Even JD Edwards and the Books/magazines I have from that era praised the japanese cars...


Please post link where you find this fact. I would be interested to read it.. I thought "jap" cars from the 80's and 90's were the ones still running with little repair and maintainance...

Read It Correctly
 

I said they were "often called Jap Crap". I bought what others called Jap Crap.
I rode my Honda by many a broke down Harley.

And....No I dont have issues of JD Powers from the 70's to back up why many used the term "Jap Crap".

I have a Honda ST1100, Civic, SnowBlower, Outboard and Lawnmower.
Oh, and a Honda XL250 made in 1973.

also YASSHI you quoted me out of context about me calling Mercedes Flawless. Not even Close to what I said. I said My Mercedes ML320 TRANSMISSION has been flawless in 130,000 miles on original fluid.
My words are being all twisted up YASSHI, you are a guy arent you ?

most probably the MB cars last longer or stays longer on the road since they change models every 8 to ten years. Plus their service life is longer, indeed there were a lot of factory engineering flaws. Which i can definitely atest to it.

Is Mercedes too troublesome ?
 

To this statement, with what has been going on with my car recently.... I can easily say, "yes". But it has nearly 270K, so I doubt any other car would be without some issues at this mileage....

Its just not knowing whats wrong that makes it so bad. :rolleyes:

I think it would still depend on the model and how you take care of Mercedes. :book: Mine doesn't give much trouble, just the usual ones experienced by any vehicle owner. Also I could easily get Mercedes 300 D parts for replacements and other accesories at a quite reasonable price...:cool:

80s toyota still around, just look at all those AE86s kicking around doing it sideways....

80s Mercedes I guess the G wagons are still tough enough. Other models have all crapped out. Mercedes commercial says their cars are faithful to the driver....

yeah like how ex-girlfriends were faithful to you. Once it has done squeezing out every penny off you she'll just dump you on the side of the road. The question is when will she suddenly feel like doing that.

Only the W123 diesels and the old diesel G Wagen come close to the Toyota and Honda reliability that you are getting, the term Jap-crap, rice burners etc. are more to do with prejudice and racism than with any substance, as a dedicated Japanese motorcycle rider, I can well relate to that, never would the guys on Harleys give us thumbs up, one Harley rider tried racing me from stop light to stop light, I was on a brand new not broken in Yamaha FZR, point is I was just going through the gears when this dude on a Harley with his woman in the back thought I was racing him, needless to say, every stoplight he got blown to pieces, unfair to go up against a full blown race bike with turn signals strapped on against a cruiser not meant to rev high, he was furious and we almost came to blows when he got down from his ride and started screaming obscenities, thats a typical Harley rider for you, maybe there are some good ones with nice attitude, I am yet to find one.

89 300ce is the most problematic car I have owed...love the look but its an over engineered pos

After reading most of these posts there appears to be one of the most important issues really NOT discussed, though it was mentioned by Benzwood briefly.....SAFETY!!! My first was a '92 190E, and my present one is a '94 S500. Sure, it may be alittle expensive to maintain, but when it comes to my wife and 7 year old son, who cares? I was always under the impression that a Volvo was touted as being the safest car on the road today...BS!! I speak from experience, because I lost my 190E after being rearended by a late model Volvo, which was totaled!! Sure, the insurance company totaled my 190 too, but only because, they said, it would have cost more to fix than what the car was worth. My point being, if I would have been in a 'lesser' car (Toyota, Nissan, etc) made of plastic and tin foil.....well, I'll leave the rest to your imagination!!:confused: That brings me to the 'tank' I now drive. She's big, heavy, and powerful and I WILL NOT trust the safety of my family to a car that can blown off the road in a 10 MPH crosswind!!!

Granted, the above is just my opinion, and I'm sure there will be some that disagree, but in this household, there will nothing but Mercedes in the garage. They won't be new ones, but they will be Mercedes!!:)

MB's in general
 

Have a new E550. Everything works perfectly. I think they have dealt with quality issues effectively. The only major problem is the 750 page owners intruction manual. We have important work to do in order for us " dumbies" to inform the company to rewrite this document so we can understand it. PS, As a surgeon, I can revove your kidney refering to a medical publcation that makes this fairly routine. Go figure.

MB's in general
 

Have a new E550. Everything works perfectly. I think they have dealt with quality issues effectively. The only major problem is the 750 page owners intruction manual. We have important work to do in order for us " dumbies" to inform the company to rewrite this document so we can understand it. PS, As a surgeon, I can revove your kidney refering to a medical publication that makes this fairly routine. Go figure.

I have no desire to own a new one, however, there has been great outcome for my daughter in a serious accident. She was going 65 around a bad curve, car pulled out in front of her. Consequently she t-boned them. Meg and her boyfriend were not even scratched, thankfully no one else either. She said "Dad, I barely felt it." No she isn't fat. There are other cars to drive, but I feel safe with her driving down I 75 in the 84 300 cd with the dominating truck drivers all over the highway. I also feel economically good about the older sd's with their repairability and help that you can get today compared to 20 years ago. I bought a car-lift, decided to do as much as I can, started reading, studying and realized that hey ,I can do a lot of this. So after learning how they tick, I am not anxious to get something totally unfamiliar to work on, ie.,90 saturn,95 camry, 90 grand prix, etc. Just my 0.02

I noticed some people here bought their MBs for status and/or driving pleasure though I don't understand how someone can enjoy driving a luxury car that by many people's accounts break down frequently. Personally I didn't buy my MB for status or "driving pleasure" but because it was a diesel and I wanted to experiment with biodiesel. My car is old but has only 143,000. It ran 2 weeks before dying. Found hard starting cause fuel to wash away cylinder oil, pushing the already low compression engine below the minimum compression threshhold. A squirt of oil and three down weeks got it started. Now the injection pump is dead.

I brought this up before but I have a John Deere bulldozer that is the same year as my MB. It requires no glow plugs and starts instantly, everytime, even during Michigan winters. Lots of people rave about the MB engineering but it has still not been explained to me why JD was able to design such an easy starting, superior engine during the same timeframe.

Luxury car?
 

<<I noticed some people here bought their MBs for status and/or driving pleasure though I don't understand how someone can enjoy driving a luxury car that by many people's accounts break down frequently.>>

I read your post covering several subjects and will respond to one of them.

Your comment in re: driving something that breaks down frequently or more correctly has the potential to do so can only refer to the 126 or 140 model and I'm convinced that buyers of these often do so for status with driving pleasure and economy (a relative term) a secondary consideration. I would not describe a 124 as a luxury car by today's standards and certainly not a 123 (I drove mine 120K miles) which was just a very good and solid mid-sized car. Both of these models are now in their dotage and have plenty of problems, just like all old machines. Their advantage is that that some repairs and maintenance can be down by the owner.

As far as breakdowns, the only MB that ever let me down (temporarily) was my '78 300D when the power steering pump erupted like a Texas gusher, in my garage. So I cut the drive belt with a knife and dropped the car off at the dealer on my way to work for the warranty repair. And both my 201s, my 202 and now my 203, despite all their warranty fixes, have never failed to proceed.

My MB sales guy called this afternoon to tell me that the production date (at long last) for my '08 C300 will be September 1-10 with delivery about six weeks later. And, based on MB's printed claim, this will be the most reliable model they have ever built and I believe it.

This one won't be a lease car, BTW, so it's another substantial committment to MB.

I've had similar thoughts and simalar cars. My 300D is converted to run on WVO, so I'm eating a lot of repairs myself. My Nissan Sentra is a great backup

Roger,

The reason older MB engines start harder than your JD tractor is probably because the MB is pre-chamber injection and the JD is direct injection. Direct injection engines are known to start easier.

I have a 40 year Case tractor with direct injectionand it starts easily without using the manifold heaters down to about 45*F.

Why MB chose to use pre-chamber injection instead of direct injection, I do not know. Maybe someone else can answer that question.

The newer MB are now direct injection.

P E H

Confusion
 

<<Roger,

The reason older MB engines start harder than your JD tractor is probably because the MB is pre-chamber injection and the JD is direct injection. Direct injection engines are known to start easier.

I have a 40 year Case tractor with direct injectionand it starts easily without using the manifold heaters down to about 45*F.

Why MB chose to use pre-chamber injection instead of direct injection, I do not know. Maybe someone else can answer that question.

The newer MB are now direct injection.

P E H>>

Huh? I don't have a John Deere anything. I was answering Hickey's post on the subject which I thought was pretty clear. And MB used pre-chambers because it's quieter. Comparatively. And BTW, todays MB Bluetec engines have nothing much in common with tractor (or Isuzu truck) direct injection.

My HINI DI engine on the Nissan Patrol starts at quarter turn even in 2C winters here, whereas my IDI turbo OM616 needs glow plugs and half throttle with few cranks to start in the same weather, DIs rule when it comes to starting, far better than any gassers for that matter.

When I got my 140 I did not even start to realize how many things could go wrong. 4 years later and probably around $14K invested in repairs I don't think I will foot another bill.
I am sure that the engine and tranny can go 300-400K miles, but the electronics and everything else is just horrible.
140 has got the the best looks of any MB, even better than the new S-class, but for Pete's sake, it looks like they made it with the idea that the owner will pay about the same price for the parts/repair as for the whole new car...:(
So, I will wait for a good deal on a 3-4yr old certified pre-owned S-class (definitely will invest in extended warranty) and will trade in my 140 for mere pennies as compared to what $$,$$$ went into it...

I rebuilt my first car engine at 13 years old. I am 44 now. With 31 years of gasoline vehicle experience I have seen where people have brand loyalty for strange reasons like, "I buy Fords because my dad always drove them". I can point out to the Ford people examples of how Ford has been producing junk for 30 years, yet you cannot change their minds, even as they return to the repair shop again and again.

I wonder how much of that goes on with the Mercedes people: My guess is it would be the same. How many people promote them because they are good and how many promote them for other reasons?

I have been thinking about this a bit too. I read lots of praise for the W124. Mine is a 1995 E320. I do love the car, even though it has plenty of expensive problems, but I think the reality is that newer cars are probably faster, quieter, handle better, and are more reliable. That may even be true for Fords, although I would be more tempted to get 3-series BMW, or maybe a Lexus, or an Acura.

Well yeah a new car of any make would need less attention then a 13 year old car.

For totaly trouble free driving its hard to beat a leased BMW 3 series. The only problem is that route will cost you about $6k a year, much more then your 13 year old E class. For a new E350 your looking at about $9k a year.

I have owned my 1995 e320 car for 10 years. I would say it cost about $4K per year, if I include the depreciation. I know my car has cost more to own than my wife's Honda Accord, but my car is nicer to drive. I think a new 3-Series would also be nicer to drive than my car, although it might cost more. It is just that some will say that it is worth it to pay more for the W124 experience, compared to the Honda Accord experience, since the W124 is so great. I am just saying it really isn't all that great, compared to say the the new or newer 3-Series BMW, which is regarded by many as possibly the best all around car in the world.

I am just saying that if I purchased a slightly used 3-Series, like I did with my W124, I might find it costs about the same to own as my aging W124, but that it would really be much nicer in many ways, or possibly every way, to be in the newer 3-Series. Many seem to try to convince themselves that these older Benz cars are really superior. I don't think they really are, even though I still love driving my car and I think there is something special about keeping and maintaining an older vehicle.

I would not consider the newer or newest Benz!

$4k a year? Thats not bad. I expect a luxury car to run about $2k-$4k a year to keep as they age.


The only way to not have to pay that while driving a high end car is to buy a new one every 2-3 years and trade before the factory warranty goes up. I know a builder that buys a new 325I every year, costs him about $10k a year but he always has a brand new BMW. Thats not a bad way to go if you just want something new all the time.

I know a ton of people with late model MB's, they all love them. Happy people don't complain and make noise.

Alas, not many of us belong to this privileged circle. Otherwise there would be no forum like this.

Just bought a new E350 2 weeks ago.
I must say that it drives nice and that everything works fine so far.
The new brakes feel more responsive than the SBC system.
However I noticed something right away.
The car feels like it's made out of a tin can.
The same cheap metal and plastic feel that many of you complain about on Japanese cars.
It must be the new way to make cars now as compare to the older vehicles.
I compared it to my 96 W210 which feels solid and better engineered to me.
For example, I was really surprised to see that the rubber foam seal that surrounds the trunk lid on the W211 does not cover the entire opening like my W210.
I wonder how much MB is saving by doing this?
I have heard many people say that MB was lowering quality on it's cars to make more profits but the sight of this made me wonder what else are they cutting back on. Are they as safe as the older cars?

I don't think I can justify the high prices of a MB anymore as they really are not that much better than a Toyota in my eyes.
Is the quality of a new MB worth 2-3 times the price of a new Toyota?

No, it is the brand not the real value. MB lives on its reputation of the past. I love my 300CE but would not buy a new MB, not for that inflated price.

Thats what many W124 owners thought when the W210 came out...

Its funny how that works...

Well high end cars cost more to maintain then regular cars, thats been true since the car was invented. Model T vs Duesenberg. Even if its used, thats just the way it is.

Thats why most older MB's are shot, people cannot or will not repair them and just drive them until the problems affect operation.