It looks like we are all willing to accept different levels of tradeoffs to drive MBs.

Cap'n Carageous, your travails have far exceeded my threshold for pain, and I would have given up long ago. Reading the forums, there are some owners that have more than their share of bad luck. In my very short period of ownership, problems have been minor.

Since buying my used 1991 300CE with 112,250m in June 2002, now with 122,750m, this is what I've done besides fluid changes:

tumbler $90
SRS and horn contacts $50
Horn Hub $80
voltage reg $50
front rotors and pads $165
thermostat $7

I LOVE driving this car. I look forward to my driving everyday. When faced with a new car purchase decision, my choices were a new econobox (i.e. Honda) that would be initially expensive but would have low maintainance and high dependability or this car that looked awesome, drove awesome and cost far less but with potential repair and dependability problems. So far so good, knock on wood.

glenmore
1991 300CE

well honestly I didnt expect such a welcoming reply when I initially posted this out of frustration :-D
I guess I'm not the only one here who seems to think that there's a huge "price" to pay for the "personality" as was mentioned. But honestly, back in the 80's or even early 90's I would've understood this notion. but now with ample amount of luxury cars available, japanese in particular, I fail to comply with the statement that "personality" factor can only be found having a three point star on your hood. It can easily be found with four circles in your grill, taking the bavarian route, or to make life easy going the 'upscale toyota (lexus)' way.
I truly understand what Cap'n has to say about the reliability factor. I've got two 190's and a w124 but I dare not drive them farther than 50 miles from home. because I've been stuck with all three of them numerous times and had to tow them to the dealer. two of them are owned almost new with all histories available.
I would have to sadly conclude that the pre 90's benzes can more or less be categorized as a "mechanic's love" rather than a " personality booster" . Because when you have to stand on the side of the road with your suit on and trying to get under to hood to see what in the world made all that coolant drop on the road and why you see smoke out of your front hood. only to find out later that due to "design flaw" the neck of the radiator gave away... that situation just can't be categorized as the "price for personality" by anyone passing you by on the road or yourself as the moment :)

LOL, could be. and how about the 24/7 road side assistance. If i'm not mistaken they were the pioneers in that service. maybe for a reason :)

glenmore's on my wavelength. :)

If you just want to get from Point A to Point B with a minimum of fuss, then get a Japanese econobox.

But if you want a "nice" car, I think a well-maintained used Mercedes compares very favorably to other cars at just about any reasonable price point you care to choose. If you get too cheap, you should probably steer away from the Benz, because it's probably cheap for a reason.

Despite their quirks, Mercedes "wear" better than most cars. The styling is more timeless, the materials used are higher quality, and they are (generally) better maintained by their owners.

So you can buy (I did) a 10-year-old Mercedes that's really nice... nicer (in my opinion) than a brand new Japanese sedan that's pushing $30K. That leaves a lot money left over for unexpected repairs.

Another interesting comparison might be a new loaded Camry vs a later model Starmark E Class Mercedes. Purchase price is probably comparable, and both would have repairs warranteed.

If you want that new car smell, then I dunno... a new Mercedes is quite a wallet-biter and I'm not sure current construction materials and quality are as good as some of the older models. Moot point for me, anyway, as I'm not planning on dropping $50K for a new car any time soon. :)

I've also heard that Mercedes is single handedly responsible for the rise in popularity of the cellphone, as it is a necessity in an older Benz!!!:D ;) :p



Note to readers: This is one of those posts that keeps pushing itself down. At least one post above it should actually be below it.

We have a 16 year old Mazda in our family that is easily the most reliable car we've ever owned. It has required little other than routine maintenace, except:

Nothing before 133,000km's. Then after that:

New struts front and rear, and fronts are shot again
New alternator
New radiator
New battery (a few)
Dash illumination replaced

Pretty good for 16 years and about 170K-miles. The AC is on the way out, and that'll be an expensive repair. I'm debating keeping the car as insurance rates have gone up, but it's a durned handy thing to have.

The real kicker is the driveline. We're for sure on borrowed time on the electronic four speed auto box. Also, the engine will need some top-end attention soon. Neither of these things will be done by us. If the tranny lunches, the car is towed away. No way would I drop $2500 on a car worth half that.

Here's the problem. A 16 year old Benz still has value. It must have, otherwise why on earth would anyone do anything more than a minor repair to one? Fix a 1990 anything? Huh? Why do people expect their 14 year old MB to have new car like reliability? The very fact that the cars have strong engines is AMAZING to people that own old cars. Check out those "great" 1988, 1989, or 1990 Honda Accords. They're buckets compared to any similar vintage Mercedes. Our Mazda is a great car, but drives like crap, looks like crap, and is not worth anything to anyone but us. If that's what you want, go ahead.

Now, my family experience has been marginal on new MB products. The C230 has been good (until my tranny recently) but our E300 was terrible. I personally think MB could do better on many fronts, and 3-5 year relability is one of them. Yes, the bottom end of the engine will last until I'm too old to drive, but so what if I've replaced $25,000 worth of electronic items in the meantime?

MB has been chasing new customers, and their wish came true. Unfortunately, many of these customers are moving "up" from Accords and Camrys. They expect MB to do at least as well during the first 3-5 years, and they're not. These folks were weaned on Japanese cars built i the "age of automotive reliability" (post 1988-ish) and have grown used to things running smoothly. What they don't know is that the simpliest MB is more complex that the most complex Camry.

MB has reaped what the sowed.

the initiator of this thread may cause his own problems. if ONE cannot spell, how can ONE hope to operate one of these cars.

i think the name is MERCEDES.

As always, this is one of the most interesting forums I have seen. The typical postings show a higher degree of thought than, say a Honda forum.

Prior to making my decision to buy a vintage MB I researched several competing makes of vehicles. I had a few reasons for what I wanted. I have other vehicles that serve my daily transportation needs. New Camry every 2-3 years, a Honda del Sol at my disposal (not that I use it much), a 2001 VW Golf GTI VR6, and my '77 VW Type 2 (seven passenger bus) that has under 75K miles. For me, each serves a purpose and I knew I didn't NEED another mode of transportation. What I did need was a hobby. Additionally, I work with at-risk teens and needed a utility vehicle. Hence, I now own and love my '87 300TD. It has lived up to all of my expectations. When I need escape from thinking about the gross neglect problems seen through the at-risk teens I work with, I can count on my 300TD. It is already a point of pride. Past neglect, possibly some engineering flaws, have given me a vehicle that I can work on when I want to. I can break from the problems of the day and relax by hunting for items that might require some attention. You know, learning to remove the console in order to clean and apply some dielectric compound to the rocker switches. Exploring how to remove the tailgate interior panel w/o breaking the top edge in order to service the rear wiper. Personally speaking, I hope my list never ends. If it does, I misunderstood what so many wrote within the past postings of this forum.

Check some of the other vehicle forums and you may find a large quantity of lightweight chatter as opposed to the helpful and well thought-out postings here (excluding ones like this one ... though these also serve a purpose). Long live MB and the quirks that help make them so unique.
Steve

Albert,
smart thinking. you've contributed to this thread something that the rest of 1670 viewers could not. but then again your contribution of thoughts are as good as a spell check software available as a freebie.

Exactly. My 14-yr old Benz still looks great, drives great, and is totally reliable. All it takes from me is diligent maintenance.

I wish I still had all my old smilies that I lost in the 'crash'. I'd be using the LMAORIF and BOWDOWN for this one! ;)

Cap'n:

It sounds like your car is suffering from old age and possibly collateral damage due to the failure of other inter-related components...your luck with this appears a bit more unfortunate that it should be (although, minus the tranny and FI, your list is close to mine as far as the W124 is concerned). ;)

The W124 is the Honda Accord of the MB line...you probably would be better off getting rid of it and cutting your losses, as you aren't on a journey to restoring a collectible. Or part it and start looking for a newer E?

BTW Camry lovers...that car is on the top of the hit list for theft in most states...so insurance rates would probably negate what you would be saving on repairs! :rolleyes:

I think we are all drawn to the fact that we purchased ancient (and somewhat ailing) MBs because by face value, they looked shiny, robust, and capable of full-duty use as a regular driver for many more years. And we get to cruise to work in a BENZ for God's sake! A win-win situation!

None of us would have considered looking at a 6 (or more) yr. old Japanese or American car and feel the same excitement! But if we did, we probably would have experienced just as many problems (or more)...with the difference that much of it would be ignored or go unrepaired...until the car would just completely die!

How many of us owned a beater with a rusty A-frame and didn't think twice about it...but if the Benz makes a wierd noise when we do such-and-such it's BAM! Off to the forum! :p

My 2¢ worth
 

My wife and I bought a '98 ML320 in 2000, with 60,000 miles on the odo. We traded a Nissan with 215,000 miles that gave us very little trouble. In the first year we had it, the turn signal switch, harmonic balancer, and 4 wheel drive computer all went bad. A couple years after that the mid-shaft bearing quit and left my wife stranded 300 miles from home. I don't see how any of these were caused by a lack of maintenance.

I'm willing to live with some degree of higher maintenance for the character of the Mercedes, but this is more trouble than I would expect from a fine German car (it would be different if it were Italian or British). I'll admit the US built Mercedes are not as well made, or costly, as German produced cars, but I wish any of them lived up to the reputation for reliability Mercedes had 20 years ago.

Aside from that, the car rides and drives like new, even with the original shocks and 115,000 miles. Most Japanese cars would have needed shock replacement to avoid that floaty ride by now. I believe that the longevity of a Mercedes is still better than the Japanese--I'm expecting 300,000 miles out of my ML--but for reliability a new Honda or Toyota wins hands down.

Hold on there pardners!!
 

I'm as guilty as anyone for turning this into a 14 year old Mercedes verses Toyota/Honda debate. But let's take Steve Brotherton's advise and compare apples to apples.
A friend owns an 86 BMW 735i. Car is in great shape inside and out. He recently had it repainted and you would never think it was that old. We recently put 4 overfed men and overstuffed golf bags in it and drove it on a 250 mile roundtrip to a golf outing. I was very impressed with the ride, handling, comfort and sheer elegence of the car. Over 200,000 miles on original drivetrain.
When I asked my friend what it costs to maintain he just chuckled and said "Well anything you do to it is a $1000."
How often is that? "About twice a year."
So Cap'n, what's your point? I'm not sure other than luxury costs money. And then some more. And more...........

I suspect a considerable number of the complaints about reliability have to do with newer electronc systems that cost the earth to replace. If we could get the "lower line" MBs available in Europe, we would have fewer conplaints -- no ACC, no traction control, no power windows, no power seats, etc. Much nicer in my way of thinking. After all, it wasn't till the W126 chassis that you could GET power seats in a Benz!

We expect zero maintenance these days, I think and MB still does things the "old way". Maintenance is seen as something proper and expected, the idea of parts that last forever just doesn't seem to be part of the system yet.

Mind you, no one thinks of Benz as a disposable car (yet, anyway!), while no one things of a Dodge Neon as anything else! Or a Toyota or Nissan, either! Use em and toss em.

Peter

Cap'n, I guess that's where we differ... to me, your example reinforces my opinion.

I think driving a 1986 BMW 735i for only $2000/yr in maintenance is CHEAP!! You are getting a high-end luxury car experience for that money.

As I recall when I was in the market, the 735 has a reputation for high maintenance, and can thus be purchased cheap. Well under $10,000 for a very nice example of that vintage.

So, compare for example the 5-year cost of ownership. Lets say you spend the whole $10K for a really nice 735 of that year, spend $2K/year for maintenance, and end up with a resale value of $5K. So a net cost of $15K over 5 years.

What's the nicest Toyota experience you can get for the same cost of ownership? Maybe a brand new mid-range Camry. Ok, which would you rather drive, today... and a couple years from now?

Also, taxes, insurance and licensing (in most states) are significantly less on that BMW than on a new Camry, which you also have to figure into the total cost of ownership.

So... I think you CAN get luxury for less. Less money, anyway. I still have to give the nod to the new Toyota for less hassle.

Take a Val Benzwood!!
 

In your zest to challenge anything I say or unthinkingly disagree with with me you missed my point. We should not be comparing unibodies with your old Benz. An old car is an old car. Whether a new anything is a better deal than an old Benz is highly subjective. My statement was not that luxury costs a lot of money. New luxury does. Old luxury costs less, but it still costs. And continues to cost in upkeep. Forget the Toyo and Hondas. Compare your car with what's in it's class. If it's worth what it costs to you then great. Let's hope it continues to hold up. Mine's eating my wallet and hasn't provided what was 'promised'.

Capt'n:

Benz has been unibody since 1953, so you would have to have a REALLY old one for a body on frame type.....

Peter

Cost Of Ownership
 

When you compare cost of ownership of automobiles you also have to factor in the "cost of money." If you finance it you have the interest cost of the loan. If you buy it outright you have the loss of the interest on the money or what you could have made on the money if you invested it elsewhere.

So, if you buy a used luxury car for $10,000 or a new whatever for $20,000, your cost of money is twice as much for the new whatever. Also, sales tax on the new whatever will be twice that of a $10,000 used luxury car.

So after you buy that new $20,000 car and after the new car warranty runs out after 3 years/36,000 miles you pay for repairs. These cars are also getting more complicated and are having their problems. Jump onto some discussion groups for Honda Accord's and Toyota Camry's and you will find they are also not as bulletproof as they once were. Again, this is probably due to these cars also not being as "basic" as they once were.

$2000/year is outrageous!
 

I don't know how owning an 86 BMW 735i would cost $2000/yr. I owned 12 Bimmers and only Bimmers before my 1st Benz and still have one. I can list all the possible problems that could go wrong in a pre 90 BMWs. I personally would not consider any of them major. An 84 528e that I spent no more than $1500 in the past 7 years. Starts every morning and I prefer it over the Benz. It's my daily driver. The Benz costed me about $3000 so far most of it in parts in less than 2 years. I drove the 528e to Chicago from SC over 15 times in the last 2 years. I love the way this car cruise on the Highway. By the way, Not a single drop of oil added between oil changes. It has 189,xxx. Unless your friend goes to the dealer everytime something wrong goes with the car, small or big, I can understand $2000. Most of the expense of maintaing German cars is Labor. I must admit that I don't take my car anywhere unless I really really have to. I research and try to fully understand the system I am working on. I have plenty of tools. I am successful 90% of the time and sometimes I give up due to lack of specail expensive tools. I can't wait to get a 540i 6-speed...talking about power and handling. Truly the Ultimate Driving Machine.

I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that!;)

Meza, the fiend I speak of with the BMW always uses the dealer. He doesn't know the difference between a spark plug and spark knock!

Just for the record --had a 94 750i -- I hit a parking curb (not very hard I add) I do not remember what it was that I damaged on that thing -- it was an electronic sensor + ( I am not making this up $4500.00) I remember calling my insurance co and also fighting with BMW service about this crasy set up for this motor. BMW did step up to the plate.

They suffer from the same thing as MB - so does SAAB -- years ago (around 91)you never and I do say never wanted to own a 9000 T out of warr.

Warranty?
 

Even under a warranty, damage caused by misuse, such as by hitting a curb would not be covered. Although there is reason to only own some of the more complex cars only while they are covered by warranty, this is not one of them.

Time to share my story
 

Hi there,

I for one also think $2000 in repairs a year is rather high.
I do like the design of bimmers as well, but as soon as I get into one I am let down by the plasticky build of the interior. Also I worked in Denmark at a BMW dealer and I saw the repair bills. Everything seem like special order and repair costs were consistently high. I for one is a very biased MB fan. I love the feeling of quality. In comparison I am not considering the latest 3-4 years of cars for MB or BMW. I do feel like MB has lost some ground during these years. I hope years to come proves us wrong but the stories worries me.
My experience with my last 4 MB's are as follows:

1998 - 2000 300ce from -92:
Got it with 67000 miles one owner from the dealer and negotiated 3 years starmark warranty for $980.- . Only thing ever went wrong was a dead battery, which MB replaced as it was not an original MB battery. My wife was sold on MB's. In terms of depreciation, this was my most expensive (-$7000).

1999-Current 300sdl from -86: (currently 172000)
Found this one owner car with 124000 mi. Same mechanic for the last 14 years, who has all rec's.
Has beyond reg. maintenance cost about $1200. Worst things were a leaking injector pipe, a stuck window and screecking wheel bearing. (Battery is way overdue and brakes are due soon, no warping though). Depreciation is negliable.

2000 - 2003 s500 -96: Starmarked for 4 years for $2000.
Leased this one for 36 mth's. Paid 52000 + tax. US Bank signed up for residual of 38000. This past februar I negotiated with US bank through 2 mth's (they called several times) and finally paid 20800. Two weeks later we sold it privately for 28000 with still one year of transferable starmark warranty. Depreciation very cool. Bank lost a little. Got new tires and heater core on the warranty. Had to do brakes myself for $700. Nothing else ever went wrong.

2003 - currently 560sel from -89:
This car I just bought. ("Buyer beware" story). I had just put new brakes and rotors all over for $670. Everything else has been done to it. Paid too much but with all the repairs I feel, I have a very good car on my hands.

In my experience I believe that buying an older well kept MB with proper maintenance history can only save you money over the long run. No other car can come close in terms of total ownership cost compared to the luxury you enjoy. With the newer ones with problems and depreciation factor, it is another story.
I believe I will be driving MB's for the rest of my life. 65% of the reason I would say is the total ownership cost. Rest is the fact that they are very safe and drives very nice. I do miss my S500 but I will say that I feel I was lucky with the one I had.

I think many people who have stories with older ones are either inheriting other peoples problems or mistreating their cars. I believe german cars are more sensitive to misuse and bad maintenance. One way I see people mistreat cars is by not letting them heat up and cool down properly. It's easy to hurt a car in these two phases.
Another thing I have made my wife no do is the parking on a hill without setting the emergency brake. The car then hangs in the transmission and when she shifts to drive upon leaving the car makes a big jerk, which can't be good for the transmission. Also when I meet her she would sometimes shift to park before the car was at a complete stop (barely moving). But it still resulted in a jerk. I don't know what these actions do to the car but my common sense tells me it's not a good idea.
What do I know. I just know that my MB experience has proven to both my wife and I that keeping older MB's. A prerequisit though is that one knows which models and which problem with model to look out for. That's where these forums helps out so much..

Jari

Mercedes cars
 

Talking about owning a Benz, I bought a 1994 C180 188,000kms last year from a shifty used dealer and had to do quite a bit of jobs to fix things since then. I failed to have it checked by an independent inspector and took it as is. So far, I have had to do the following:-

full lubrication service, oil change, brake fluid change, power steering fluid top up/checks, transmission fluid top up/checks, new OEM air filter and sparks.
Alarm system checked and serviced
aircon checked and serviced.
all brakes checked and missing wear sensors installed.
front bushes looked bad from under, replaced.
all four wheel covers replaced-cosmetic.
windscreen wiper blade replaced.
leaking water pump and noisy tensioner replaced.
worn serp. belt. replaced.
battery totally flat replaced.
blown rear brake lamp replaced.
blown rear ceiling courtesy lamp bulb replaced.
some fuses replaced.
2 leaking vacuum actuators under the dash replaced.
a couple of dash bulbs replaced.
coolant tank cap replaced.
fuel pump and filter replaced, but wasn't necessary. Conned by indie!
replaced whole exhaust system, main muffler went south.
regreased sunroof/moonroof rails.
replaced left front door RV mirror console previously damaged.
replaced radio aerial and plastic trace, popped out.
removed golfball dents in front hood and respray .
resprayed front bumper and side mouldings.

tinted all windows except front as an extra.
put in front and back seat covers.

extra future work:-
change all 4 rotors and pads.
change all 4 shocks, rears have oily traces.
change damaged rear boot locking mech.-still works though.
dash centre airflow roller jammed open permanently-luckily.
alloy rims and wider tyres-now OEM 15"steels with 195s.
change speakers which are not efficient enough.
Have almost new condition Pioneer 12disc CD player Carrozzeria CDX-P1200 for rear boot with missing plastic CD tray and also almost new condition Pioneer High Power Super Tuner 111 , KEH-P4750 waiting to be installed. No speakers yet.

The above fixes were not really major, mostly ignored by hopeless PO.

So anyone out there looking to buy a high mileage Benz, please check it out completely and make sure you have a few spare bucks up your sleeve to do all the required fixes, ignored by the PO.

Just a clarification on the BMW... I was just using it as an example of total ownership cost and why a high-end luxury can be comparatively cheap even with high maintenance costs. I don't really like 'em, honest. :)

The BMWs I've driven have too much of a gimmicky feel for me. Some of them you can barely see the steering wheel for all the buttons on it.

I also think (a guess) that BMWs are more likely to have been driven hard (ultimate driving machine and all that).

But most importantly, they suffer from the stereotype that their drivers are jerks.

I have a friend who has several newer BMWs (and drives like a jerk, by the way) and whenever I drive one of his cars I can feel the difference in the way other drivers treat me.

No courtesies extended in merging or turning, for example, which of course means you have to muscle your way in like a jerk... and the self-perpetuating cycle continues. :)

Oh yeah, and their grills are ugly.

Just drove to Tampa and back to watch my young nephew play an Allstar soccer game. Love my E39 540i on the road. We went early and the drive was nice (120 miles). On the way back the traffic was a bear (I-75), partly because there is a home football game for the UofF today.

A big red Dodge truck and I were trying to drive about 10-20mph faster than everyone else and my wife was sleeping. one time when she was awake I pointed out how much better off I was following the truck than the other way around. People moved right out of the way for the truck. For me they moved their slow a** right in front of me at every opportunity. It gets to be a real game.

I don't have the experience with MBs that you guys have but my used W210 is going on 2 years now. With 83K miles I just put front shocks and new tires on. I had a window regulator go and thats about it.

Don't freak but the kid at the Quick oil change place knows a lot about the car. The first time that I took it in for an oil change I was real nervous, but it needed to be done. The kid knew how to replace the oil filter like it was his own car. I think I'm real lucky. He also knew that it was synthetic only.

I hope this post doesn't jinx me.

I am currently considering a 86-88 560SEL, 300SDL or 81-85 300SD. I hope the one I get is reliable. I think these typically are. As far as the reliability of Japanese cars, I think they are about the best- some of them anyway - even though my grandfathers 1990 Mazda 929 has 172K, but it has blown a head gasket before. I do not think Mitsubishis or the other Mazdas are all that great, but my aunts mother-in-law had a 95 Mirage that had 340K miles that finally died. She drove it on the highway a lot. Ironically, she has a 1993 Mercedes 190e that she bought in 1996, then drove it for a year until the brakes went out, then she decided to park it under pine trees, where it has set for years and is now green from moss. Sounds crazy to me.
Anyway- about the quality of Hondas/Toyotas- I currently have a 1993 Toyota Camry LE V6, with 211K miles and it still runs like brand new. There are NO electrical problems, no rattles or squeaks and the car is built very well, with high quality materials. My old 1991 Honda Accord LX 4dr had about 190K and still ran excellent and was also built with high quality materials. I have also owned other 80s model Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys in the past- some with well over 200K and all running well. In addition, my dad has a 88 Nissan truck with the 3.0L V6 and it has 250,000 and still runs fine. It has NEVER broken down the entire time he had it. He bought it in 99' with 200K from my uncle, who bought it brand new. It was never maintained, but still ran fine. It even still had the original spark plugs until two weeks ago. :eek: I must say however, I think the quality of Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans have went down over the past few years however. I have heard of squeak and rattle problems with the new Camry's, Tundra's & Sienna's, as well as other problems with Hondas and Nissans. One good thing though, is that Honda and Toyota now also make some of the safest cars in the world today. Many of their cars earn excellent ratings in NHTSA's crash tests, as well as IIHS's "off-set" crash test.
I also had thought there was a lot of posts here about Mercedes problems, but it could be that this site has had more exposure than other sites. Most all car makes have boards similar to this on the internet. I am actually a member of several other forums very similar to this one. Some include, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Acura and Lexus. I have not yet found a BMW site like this one. I guess all in all- any car can break down, but a Mercedes requires a little more care and maintainence than many other cars.

reliability and service cost
 

It seems to me that the experience of any one person or the experience that any one person has heard about, for an MB or any other car, will vary considerably. Some people have good experience, others do not.
An objective way to judge the reliability is from some statistical analysis based upon a large sample. The only such analysis published over a long period of time that I am familiar with is Consumer Reports. When I bought my first MB about 35 years ago, MBs were among the best, if not the best, in the frequency of repair ratings. There were very few Japanese cars in the US then. Now, the Consumer Reports charts show MBs as among the worst. The Japanese cars are the best, in general. That's just a fact.
As far as why that happened, it is probably a combination of the standards rising (that is, the best cars are much better now than 35 years ago) and MBs not keeping up, perhaps because of the increasing complexity of the cars.

My own personal experience with MBs has been entirely with cars owned by someone else before I get them. I have greatly enjoyed driving them, and I think their capabilities have risen consistently and considerably over the years. But there have been many times when I wanted to throw in the towel and say "never again." I think every one of them has had at least some repairs that I thought should not have been necessary, or were premature, or were overly expensive. Of the cars I have had, I think the best was my 1992 300D 2.5 Turbodiesel. But I lost it prematurely due to an accident. Maybe if I had owned it longer it would have needed major repairs, too.

I no longer recommend MBs to my friends as a "reliable" car, as I used to you when I was first driving diesel MBs. I think at one point I was able to brag that I had driven somehing like 250,000 miles without being left at the side of the road.

But I still enjoy them, and I keep buying them despite the costs. Call it a passion, or a hobby, or a bad habit. There is something special about the way they ride and handle.
But I sure do wish I could get another 300D 2.5....

Have a '97 C280 Sport. Driven it about 180,000 miles. Its never been to a dealer for any rutuine maintenace. Most MB owners buy these cars because they require so little care, at least thats why I bought mine. All I do is change oil. tires of course and battery. But in general MB require no real outlandesh maintenace. I think the worst thing you can do is have a dealer do your work.

Hello,
I think that continous ownership of Mercedes from a 1954 170DS(my father's second and only other car) to a 2000 ML320 *qualify* me to comment here.

1. 1953 170DS(W191): Used everyday from 1954 to 1981, about 780,000 miles. Only real failure was OM636 engine threw a rod in 1970 due to air leak in vacuum governor line, overreving engine.

2. 1976 200(W115): Current daily driver, apart from worn carb that has been rebuilt with new main body, runs like it can go on forever. True miles unknown, I guess it has covered at least 200,000.

3. 1989 260E(W124): Some minor a/c issues and an oil leak from front timing cover, all cured. Changed all 4 shoks in 2000 and needs the vacuum actuators replaced in the heater/ac unit, otherwise has given sterling service. About 160,000 miles on it right now.

4. 2000 ML320(W168): OK, here is the *black sheep* of the fleet.
Has needed wheel alignment twice, sunroof assembly, battery, 4 new tires, front brake pads, front center armrest/console cover, an intermittent vibration at idle and the latest *trick*, the BAS, ABS and ESP lights blinking at the driver randomly. Total mileage is 30,000 miles.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions.

I am currently looking for a W113 SL and if that falls thru, a original 250S W108 is a back up choice and a W126 300SE for daily driver use if my W115 expires.

Acquaintances who have W140, W210, W202 type cars always seem to be *fixing* something or the other on their cars. It seems to me that the 1990s generation of Mercedes have *planned obsolescence* so that owners buy/lease newer cars.

My contribution to this thread:

View your car like you would a person - its not how perfect they are, but rather, how happy they make you.

Also, I read post after post about the cost of ownership. This in particular: The cost of individual repairs are not what counts. Cost of ownership ALWAYS comes down to cents-per-mile.

Mike

Three window regulators, loose wheel bearing, squeaky seats, air mass sensor failure, malfuntion valve, O2 sensor replacement, dead battery, and many other little things that make today's Mercedes synonym to unreliable and irresponsible. Talk about total ownership cost and "state of denial" that some of us are in. It's true that Mercedes used to make cars that surpass and excel even today's standard; however, today's Mercedes quality is falling into a black hole that we will never see an end to this turmoil, at least in a near future. I know many of you may have heard of this already, I still have to say it one more time. Compared to the Camry I used to own, my Mercedes is a piece of junk, it's a fast-food car like McDonald food. Nowaday, people buy Mercedes because it's a Mercedes, not because what used to make a Mercedes a Mercedes, quality, durability, and reliability. All these essential ingridients are long gone. Neverthless, people only care about the name, a non existant attribute made up of aggressive marketing campaign and prapaganda. After all, German engineer is no better than Detroit Innovation. Buyer beware.

Twenty-five years ago I set out to prove that MBs could be an efficient cost/mile car to own. In my area of the woods, the size of my business is proof of my capability to do just that! And I charge!

The great bulk of my MB business is on 10-20 year old cars. I'll guarantee that you won't find successful shops with any size working on 10-20 year old Asian products or domestic either.

These are some real statistics! Combined with our body shop, we have 30 people independently maintaining these cars.

This might offer a contrast in ease of repair, I just found out that to replace a starter in a Lexus LS 400, you have to remove the injection system and the intake manifold! Yikes.

Built For Assembly - Not Repair
 

Like I have indicated before, many vehicles are designed for ease of assembly, not repair. Yes, you can keep them going but at what cost/mile?

I will give you another example of basic maintenance that is not economical. The spark plugs in an Lexus RX300 are designed for 100,000 mile replacement intervals, but if you keep the vehicle this long and need to replace the plugs, the ones up against the firewall are inaccessible unless you loosen the engine mounts and tilt the V-6 engine forward!

Someone mentioned planned obsolescence of an MB. Look around you and see how many 10+ year old Toyota's, Nissan's, Lexus's, Infiniti's and other Asian products you even see on the road out there. Probably the main reason you see this is the cost of repairs on these vehicles exceeds the value of the vehicle after the 10 year/100,000 mile point.

i continue to be intrigued by this thread.

i once had a salesman in 1990. i would have furnished him a benz. he wanted a honda. accord, i think. he worked for me for two years. the car was remarkable. it never saw the shop. when this salesman left, i retrieved his car and drove it back to my offices[100 mile run].

the car was totally screwed up. no wonder it was so maintenance friendly. nothing had been done to it for 40,000 miles. the engine ran terribly. the alignment was all screwed up[reviewing the salesman's expense reports, i discovered that tires were being replaced every 10k miles].

after 3,000 dollars to bring the car back up to norms, another salesman decided he wanted it. he was more conscientious - at least it received routine oil changes, etc. but, whenever it needed any part, the parts were never in the usa. and the car was always laid up for at least a week. these parts included spark plugs and spark plug boots[extensions], ignition wiring harness.

at 68,000 miles, the auto tranny went south. honda offered no factory rebuilds. a new replacement tranny was quoted at $3,500. at the time, 1993, i recall that this was more expensive than a new replacement tranny from benz for my 1986 560sel. and from benz, i could get a factory rebuild for about $2,500.

the new honda tranny would have to come from japan. had to be paid for in advance from the dealer, delivery time to dealer 7-10 days.

the benz trannies were available within 24-48 hours. no prepay requirement.

eventually, for a 4-banger, 120hp honda tranny we had it rebuilt at aamco for about 2 g's. should have sold the car. because the rebuild didn't make 10,000 miles.

compare this to my 8-banger, 240hp 560sel tranny. rebuilt at approx 210,000 miles for $1,700. at 250,000 miles, working like new.

i want to close by mentioning some japanese design imperatives. by law, cars in japan must be replaced every 6 years. for all practical purposes, japanese cars are designed to this durability requirement. and if you have ever driven in japan, you would recognize that achieving 60,000 miles in 6 years would be quite a feat.

i had a friend with a lexus ls400. he accumulated 60,000 miles in the houston area in less than 4 years. he took his car in for its 60,000 maintenance. he had a heart attack when he picked it up. he didn't want to tell me the cost, but i was able to get him to yes or no it into a range. more than $12,000, less than $15,000.

i have never had any maintenance performed on any of my fleet of benzes that ever came close to this amount of money.

oh, and then there is my personal lexus story for the grand finale. in 2000, i purchased a new lx470. in its first 1100 miles, i had so many problems with it, almost all dealer-caused, that i offered it back to the dealer for the full price i paid for it. without argument, he wrote me a check and re-purchased the vehicle.

i have always felt sorry for the next owner. i told the dealer that he should just keep it in his fleet as a perpetual demo.

enough said.

Cars In Japan
 

For those of you who have ever traveled to Japan and spent time there long enough to know their "safety" certification system, you will know that each year your vehicle must undergo a safety system inspection. Things such as paint scratches, dents, dings and other visible damage are not allowed and must be corrected before receiving their annual certificate. To me it was rules to support the Japanese auto industry since after a few years it was impractical to cost justify these repairs.

Driving by an auto graveyard one day, I questioned the Japanese executive who I was with how old the cars in the junkyard were since they all appeared to be in relatively good condition. He indicated that most Japanese cars did not last more than 60,000 km before they were junked!

RE: Good obsevation regarding Jap cars. My experience and expectations are to drive my C280 at least 200,000 miles at which time I may trade for another new Mercedes. If its not obvious by now that these cars require little to no maintenace then you are'nt paying attention. Now at over 180,000 miles I have NEVER had any work done on my ride.

i love my 89 300E and am confident that i will drive
it for many, many miles.

But my 1984 Toyota LE Van with 213K miles is
still all original, never failed any emission test. I also
still see a lot of them on the road.

Question:
 

I prefer driving a Mercedes. I like them, I like servicing them (for the most part) and my Dad owed his life to being protected by one during a horrific accident.

I guess this all adds up to pay to play-

Haasman

This thread is 7 pages long and I think I read enough of it to be amazed it took this long till someone pointed out safety as a consideration.

I don't usually think about it. I'm sure that is because I have driven a 3000+lb German car (Porsche, MB, or BMW) for the last 30 years.

I'm sure a year in a Honda would be an awareness shattering experience.

Safety
 

Yes, I am also amazed that it took this long to bring up the subject of safety. I guess everyone was keeping a narrow eye on the maintenance/repair cost factor.

Now that this factor has been introduced, I would like to say that when I consider purchase of any vehicle, I consider safety first! It makes no sense to save several thousands on initial purchase if you will pay later in possible medical costs after an accident (if you are so fortunate as to survive). Even after medical costs and recuperation, people just do not think about any permanent injuries that they will have to live with for the rest of their lives. I would much rather spend my money on a safe car even if it is not as trouble free as the most reliable vehicle I could purchase.

One last point, some cars have great crash ratings but they are designed to only pass the specific criteria of the test. These manufacuters do not take into consideration the vast array of crash conditions that occur in everyday life. Also, crash tests only take into account "passive" safety and do not even consider "active" safety features that keep you out of the accident to begin with.

What would you rather spend your dollars on, repair costs to your vehicle or medical costs for yourself with the possibility of lifelong injuries. When you look at it this way, a few more problems or a few more dollars just does not make economic sense to me.

Hey, I brought up safety in my first post, way back on page 2! :)

When I bought my car, one of the others under consideration was (shudder) a new Hyundai. A lot cheaper than a comparable Toyota/Honda, good features, great warranty, seemed like a good "disposable" car to cart the family around for a few years with minimal hassle. Then I looked at some of the safety ratings... and forget it. Not with a family.

Just read Albert Champion's post re: his fleet of Mercedes.

As the owner of both a 95 E320 sedan and wagon, which I think are great, great cars, I can only say...damn!! A 95 E320 Cab with 11,000 miles!!!

mercedes has their problems just like everyone else does, stuff happens, things break...
i don't see why some people sit around and badmouth these cars though. think about it, mercedes is always on the leading edge of technology, it's kind of hard to basically invent new systems, and be compared to hondas 10 years later when they finally copycat a similar system, when all the bugs are worked out.
look at everything mercedes has done... they're always years and years ahead of their time. how many cars other than MB's can be driven without putting the key in the ignition? how many have electronic brakes? how many had airbags in 84? how many cars todays still don't have ETR's? they're the first company to develop ALOT of systems on cars all over on the road. (and the new 112/113 engines are pretty darn good except the occasional oil consumption, but that's covered by warranty til 150k now anyway)
won't even mention all the things a new mercedes will do for the driver without even the driver knowing it's happening, and the driver will never even know it's a feature! it's mind boggling all the things these cars do without the customer even knowing about, just to make it a more pleasurable experience.
and if you don't need all the bells and whistles (that "always break"), then mercedes benz is probably not the right car for you.
i skipped the pages after 2 so if i missed something, that's why.
<end rant> :)

Would someone kindly explain just why MB require so much (if it is "so much") maintenace? I have over 180,000 trouble free miles on my 97 C280 and have never done anything except change the/filter. The car runs flawlessly. and I schudder at some of the problems some folks have had. Am I just lucky? Or smart enough to stay away from MB dealers?

Personally, I think MB's are currently very low on maintenance.

Your maintenance record reminds me of a couple observations I have made over this life.

The first was as I was growing up: I can remember my dad talking about some of my cousins (the ones in particular had much better funding than our family). He used to point out to other family members how his kids could own a toy truck for years and never get a scratch on them, while these cousins had their toys broke before the Christmas holiday was over. As I grew older I noticed that there are inherent differences between those who tear things up and those than can make a piece of equipment last forever.

The second observation actually was very similar but directly applied to automobiles, or at least the automobiles of one of my college room mates. He came from a poor family that probably had never maintained anything. He had a practice of never doing anything until it broke. As a techno nut, I knew he would get his just deserts eventually with such a practice.

It turns out that he is the only one of my old college chums to still live in Gainesville and I am still waiting for his just deserts. He has to be the epitome of the concept my dad expressed. He can feel problems (maybe psychicly) and adjust the way he uses the product to start wearing it differently, thus absolutely wearing it out before having to fix it for some minor lack.

To point out this kind of subconscious activity I can point to a number of things I do when driving. Many are suttle but one I plan is that I periodically change the position I grip the steering wheel so I don't wear through in any place.

More power to those psychics that can make a car wear out evenly and avoid proper maintenance. For the rest, you better do more than just change filters in a 180,000 miles.

Safety and Comfort
 

I was looking for a new car about a year ago and many vehicles came across the radar. My girlfriend's father has been a Mercedes Fanatic for over 30 years now so there was a lot of leaning toward a Benz.

I went to his house one day to find a his 300e sitting in the driveway, totaled. A drunk driver hit him at approximately 50 mph. He walked away from the accident unscathed. Seeing that totaled car and knowing that he was OK made me choose a Mercedes right away.

Now I have a 300TE and have just completed a 7000 mile road trip. I have done the same trip in another car (Chevy Beretta) and vowed that I would never drive that far again. After doing it in the Benz I cannot wait to do it next year!