benz vs honda reply
 

If chicks want to ride for fun in ur 17 yrs old benz then thats a bit wierd. And if thats the way to get a chick, she aint worth the gas money.

I personally don't care about the status part one bit.

I love my Mercedes mostly for its solid feel, great handling, and timeless design.

In my part of the world, a 5 year old Mercedes is hopelessly passe. My 20 year old SE is certainly an anti-status symbol if ever there was one, and that's why I like it!

hmmm. I think I bought my first Benz for status...I was young then. I kept it as the years went on because of the design. the following is the honest to goodness truth: nearly every time I gassed up my 108 someone would come up to me and want to look at that beast.

It remains my favorite. I love the 124 coupe, too-- it's design is timeless.

If I still owned the 108 it would likely be a Sunday driver.

Whenever someone notes my car being nice for an older vehicle and says they may buy an older MB, I tell 'em they they should either be able to work on them and be ready to do so often and that parts are pretty reasonable from non-dealer sources OR they should have a lot of money.

MB have not been, nor are likely to be, as reliable as Japanese vehicles, or even American built cars. Worse, the dealerships I have visited seem to have a rather elevated sense of their own value - OK, they're world class arrogant, actually - right up there with VW dealerships.

Don't expect things to improve - MB is intent on competing in just about every market possible - look at their line of vehicles compared to 20 years ago, vice focusing on quality.

I am so passe!

I learned about the status thing after my purchase
 

I purchased mine because of charm and appeal. I was also surprised, however, to have people kind of admiring me and then others stopping to speak to me when I can’t imagine they would have bothered with me if I were in some other cookie-cutter vehicle. I think there is a status thing and I can’t say that I don’t like it. In general, I would say it just feels good to drive my car and I guess others think I look good too.

As for perception by chicks and actually all kinds of people, the status thing and the pure beauty of my car seems to attract all kinds of appreciation. Most people have no idea how old my car is. I think they have no idea that they could have purchased my car for half the price of a new Honda. They have misconceptions about ownership costs. I am not saying it is cheap to own, but it isn’t as bad as what other people may think.

I do have people rave about riding in my 10-year-old vehicle. I understand why they like it, because it is truly a very beautiful and very well made vehicle. I love the simplicity of operation, compared to all the weird junk that goes into today’s new cars. I can just push the button on the trunk lid to gain access to the trunk. I can simply access the gas cap, without having to reach in the glove box or be sure to have my huge magic key fob. The doors don’t lock themselves when I start the car. I can lock them if I want to, but things don’t start happening all by themselves. My car also feels very good and incredibly stable at well over 100 mph.

http://forums.mbnz.org/gallery/pics/W124_57782.jpg

I purchased an '02 CL500 a little less than 2 years ago (used with a very clean carfax and MB repair work. The car has been a nightmare. Car had 15K miles on it and now has 23K. The following is the problems I've had.

Rear windows inop
Tilt wheel motor replaced
Navigation system replaced
Navigation CD intermittently rejects when inserted (no fix per MB)
ABC valve replaced (more on that below)
Motor mounts replaced
Slight vibration at about 1200 rpms (advised normal by MB)
Head rests inop
Lumbar system leaking
Door closing assist inop
Lumbar inop (advised vacuum leak in module under seats (told by MB
movement of seat ruptured part causing leak--entire interior
including front and rear seats, console and carpet removed for
repair)
Front end drops evenly after car sits for over 2 weeks (MB says normal)

I think that about covers it. My first and last MB.

Oh, and BTW, dealer chipped paint on door trim on one occasion and chipped steering wheel on another. Both fixed to satisfaction.

For that much $$$, I guess it shouldn't always be broken
 

With a CL, I think you should definitely realize that it might have cost $80,000 to $120,000, or maybe even more, when it was new. I love those cars, but I know that they are definitely out of my league. A CL 55 AMG, or is it a CL 60 AMG now, is a totoally awesome vehicle, but I could pay for a significant portion of second home with the price tag. I am sorry, but I guess I am just saying that I think you should only get a CL if you have no issues about reaching deep into your pockets. At the same time, however, I do think that it shouldn’t always be broken, considering how much it cost.

That's an awesome collection. Now I'm curious about who owns the most number of MBs, either at one time or during their lifetime.

Unfortunately, I wasn't aware that MB was having trouble with electronic componets until after I purchased the car. In any event, IMHO a new car should be practically trouble free for the first several years regardless of cost. I should point out that I also have a '91 Lincoln with 150K on it and a '76 Vette with 90K, both of which I purchased new. The combined trouble I had with them is less than that of this CL in the little time I've owned it. I consider this an embarassment to MB and if they don't get their act together, they're liable to end up like American car manufacturers fighting for its life.

Interestingly, when MB bought Chrysler, people thought the American manufacturer would bring MB down. Funny thing is, Chrysler is now profitable and MB is not.

When the deal was made it was the other way round. DCX be a force to be reckoned with when both M-B and Chrysler get their ***** together!

Here is an interesting thread at ClubLexus: Click me

Yup, I can vouch for Lexuses having their share of problems. I've been a member at ClubLexus for over 3 years, and I've seen all kinds of problems pop up on those cars. Especially irritating is when the electroluminescent guage needles burn out over time. Overall Lexus still makes a reliable product, but people who worship Lexus quality and bash MB (of which ironically there are a lot at ClubLexus...) are not getting the full picture. Lexus does indeed have a superior customer service network, however, so they are able to satisfy their customer's problems in a more friendly manner. As far as driving satisfaction goes though, I'll take Mercedes anyday.

Here is my ownership experience.

Mercedes That I Have Owned ( Not in order of purchase)

Family Model Year

W198 300 SL Gullwing 1956
W188 300 SC Roadster 1957
W188 300 SL Roadster 1962
W115 220 1968
W111 280SE 3.5 Coupe 1971
W113 280 SL 1971
W115 220 D 1972
W108 280 SEL 4.5 1973
W116 450 SEL 6.9 1977
W124 300 CE 1988
W126 560 SEL 1991
W201 190 E 2.6 1992
W210 E320 1996
W210 E430 1998
W208 CLK 55 2002
W215 S 55 2003
W215 CL 55 2004
W209 CLK 500 2004
R230 SL 55 2005

I have owned 2 late model Lexus auto's, a 2004 SC430 and a 2004 LS430. Lexus is not perfect and from my experience with the dealer service--- all that I can say is that it has been a horrible experience. My feelings on Lexus is I tried it and was not able to capture "The Ultimate Pursuit or Passion of Perfection" :mad:

I remember you from clublexus.:P I believe we are the only ones on that site and a few others that defend mb from the anti benz crowd.

That's me. I do really get ticked off with that group. You could take a turd , put big wheels on it, lower it and call it a Lexus and they would drool over it.

When I once said that the Mercedes was a car that you drive and Lexus was a car that you ride, I was afraid that they would start burning 3 pointed stars on my front lawn. They are not very open minded are they? :D :D

most owned
 

i made a list a month or so ago and came up with 29. i currently have four diesels and one gas. the parts car is being hauled away tomorrow. (82 240d) one of my running 240s is sold tomorrow.

tom w

mb
 

my 1996 has spent the last 2 years in the shop..
will come out on monday with a used replacement engine..
we rebuilt the other engine but it failed.... it is the
300te station wagon...1996 double over head cam...
i have an 88 300e that i just redid the head gasket and its
in tough shape.... honestly i drive my 1983 300sd and its
22 years old.... i think the 80's diesels are great... but other
than that i cant say any thing good about them and i own 3
and buying one more at the end of the month...

i also listen to german shortwave radio and the dw news reports that
even the germans feel there quality is out the window... there going
through an economic recession right now..

even with all that said the 1983 300sd is really only good for 300k miles...
then the tranny goes..

LOL! So very true. That's why I ditched CL a long time ago.

I have the same opinions as ksing44 about my 1994 E320 (W124). I purchased this car 6 years ago with 30k miles and have no regrets whatsoever. The car has been extremely reliable and has never let me down. I keep the car in excellent condition and 99% of the people have know idea how old the car is. I have an S front grille, clear corner lenes and custom wheels which I think gives it a contempory look. I would like to buy the wagon if I had the room.

Actually, the 124 wagon and sedan are within a couple of inches of one another in length, perhaps 1 inch overall. it's not that much difference. We have a 1995 E320 wagon and a 1994 E-class sedan as well, and both are excellent cars.

Cheers,
Gerry

Harmonic Balancer
 

I have always proudly owned Mercedes and had no problem until now. My ML 320 has been leaving me stranded by the road. First there was a crack in the Catalytic Converter, then there were strange vibrations, the vehicle looses power for no apparent reason and the problems go on. Can anyone tell me if these problems are related to the harmonic valve?

Anna

Old car rescue
 

Mercedes are only reliable when cared for by a caring owner and a knowledgable technician, it really helps if you happen to be both.

I recently traded a 1986 560SEL w/148k for a 1963 22SEb coupe. My 560 had been maintained well and never left me stranded, it did however have a few issues with the climate control, cruise control and self-leveling. The coupe was drained of its fluids and parked in a field 10 years ago.

Fill the fluids, change the filters, new battery, turn the key and Wa-La...my new daily driver. That's why Benz is the best!

I'm a 16 valver, my first MB. I love my car, and I am looking forward to a mid-90's SL. My 16V was an abused child, rode hard and put away wet, and has taken two and a half years to straighten out. I am a licsensed aircraft tech and a heavy DIY tech and would vote this car to be complex but worth the trouble. I vow never to own an asian car, they are just not the same.

A problem with the harmonic balancer could cause the vibrations, but not the power loss or the catalytic converter cracking. The ML was the first vehicle built at the Alabama plant, and has had more than its share of quality problems, especially '98 and '99 models.

My ML drives beautifully, but has been stranded by a bad harmonic balancer and a failed driveshaft center bearing. Other issues such as the cracked catalytic converter could be addressed on my terms.

I am driving a '96 E320 so I am qualified, I think, to express my opinion. Is MB too troublesome? We are all consumers, just read problems associated the MB on several MB websites, then read problems associated with Lexus and Infinity on several websites, and we all can make a clear judgement call from there, it's very clear... then we understand why more people are jumping ships from MB to Lexus. For people who care more about quality , they don't care about MB names anymore, its engine is probably still good, but its electronic portion of the car is years behind the Japs. Since new cars are controlled so much by computers nowaday, your car does not run smoothly not because of the engine but the computer that controls it. The German are too proud to copy the Japs, but the Japs are not afraid of copying the German (as long as it's legal) and make it better. I traveled to Germany a lot in the past and I've learned one interesting thing about its culture: there are 3 ways of doing business: the Right way, the Wrong way and the German way. Unless I see major improvements in MB's electronic components, I don't think MB would get a second chance from me.
I guess the same applies to GM and it's clear , to me anyway, the reasons why GM is in a deep hole. IMO, GM management can't see pass the bottom line, they should have seen troubles coming in the 80s. They should make better quality cars, they are so greedy making huge SUVs because of higher profits margin, but those things bite them in the rear end... We American sure want to have the "buy American attitude", but not to the point where we are losing money due to poor quality cars and at the same time those GM CEO and upper managers pocket high salaries... I just feel sorry for people who work for GM and Delphi... Lesson to be learned.

What am in for?
 

I just purchased a 1992 190e 2.3 with 90,000 miles. It appears to have been well maintained and runs like a top. I needed a second car that would not suck the gas to get me back and forth to work. I looked at alot of Nissans and the likes and found what I thought was a gem. After reading this Im affraid I may have made a mistake. What am I in for in the coming months?

Dudley, no one knows, but you might want to have some handtools and jackstands around just in case.

A M E N ! ! ! You speak the truth.

Cheers,
Gerry

(I just purchased a 1992 190e 2.3 with 90,000 miles. It appears to have been well maintained and runs like a top. I needed a second car that would not suck the gas to get me back and forth to work. I looked at alot of Nissans and the likes and found what I thought was a gem. After reading this Im affraid I may have made a mistake. What am I in for in the coming months?)

I am told that older MBs are better than newer ones, probably due to less electronic components in them (I don't like to make statements without data to back them up). I change oil often (3-4K miles for non syns and 7-8K miles for syns oil) and change spark plugs as recommended by car mfg, I change trans oil every 60K miles, I change coolant every 3yrs or 20K miles which ever comes first... So far they work well for me. If you can find a reliable indy mechanic, then get to know and work with him (them) ... Good Luck

thanks
 

Thanks for feedback duong.

Remember what I said about GM... now they reported 30,000 jobs lost. Sad story. But they rob the future for the benefits of next month's bottom line. People can't tolerate low quality products and poor service anymore. Customers are King, if companies don't understand that then they will disappear like Yugo, Peugeot, Fiat...

Funny how J D Powers dissagrees with your statement.....quite a few GM products are far more reliable than Mercedes....and hold the top 10 best slots....

(Funny how J D Powers dissagrees with your statement.....quite a few GM products are far more reliable than Mercedes....and hold the top 10 best slots....)

I never said that MB is a reliable car, I guess that's why more people jumps ship to high performance and reliable cars like Lexus. I also never said that GM cars are less reliable... We as consumers speak loudly as far as choices for our money, unfortunately GM does not make cars that consumers want right now. Number speaks for itself, GM stock drops 40% in 12 months, GM is closing down 12 plants... I feel sad for all of my friends who work for GM. Will Ford and Chrysler be next? Only time would tell. The truth is, in my opinion, we are now competing in the global market, 30-40 yrs ago "made in USA" was king, just because nobody could make the products that we made, so there was nothing to compare to, now people have more choices and consumers are smarter and better educated. My company bends backward to please customers for "sustainable" business and so far it's working. We quickly pull products off market if customers don't want them , we only work on project with customer's needs in mind. The years when IBM and Bell Lab worked on "blue sky" projects are gone... Lesson to be learned

I'm not a fan of GM products but the closing of numerous plants is sad for the families of the employees that will be losing their jobs. But, does anyone think for one second that the employees themselves or the unions that "represent" them will ever realize that it was their actions that are causing this?? Auto unions will put American auto manufacturers totally out of business within 10 years unless the workers wise up and get rid of them.

No, the US automakers will just move their factory's to Mexico to take advantage of nice cheap labor.

I have zero sympathy for GM they brought this on themselves. People have been saying this will happen for 10 years now. You can't pay people $20 an hour with full benifits and retirement to sweep freaken floors. Thats not how you run a business, fire them and replace with min wage labor.

the problem
 

with gm is not the labor. the problem is with the bean counters in charge of the company. gm has not cared about making a better car since the early fifties. they are going down the tubes because their products are out dated, low quality and not good looking.

christ, it was sloan in the forties who said "the business of gm is not making cars, the business of gm is making money". it took a long time to squander 60% of the us market they enjoyed in the sixties, but they finally have managed it thoroughly.

tom w

In the case of GM you can honestly assign the blame 50/50. Any company that pays its workers 95% of their wages when they're not working is a mismanaged company. They created a welfare state for their employees, thinking they are immune to competition. The really sad part for the workers and their families, is that they didn't see the handwriting on the wall; it's only been there for like 15 or 20 years. They thought the party would last forever, they deserve $27 per hour, and they took out mortgages thinking they would get increases and overtime forever!

Unfortunately the longer the party the worse the hangover will be...

My "LAST" GM car broke the C ring which locks the half shaft to the diff. The rear wheel went side-ways. Lukily it occured right in front of my drive way, not in the high way. Won't push my luck again!

What's love got to do with it?
 

One of the big differences for me is the fact that I really like my MB, more than anything I've had since my first car.
Mercedes parts can be ridiculously expensive. Sometimes all the fancy high tech stuff guarantess less reliability. Which do you think will be more troublesome - an electric window or one you roll down?
But the big difference is that I feel my MB is worthy of my attention, time, and money when necessary. With other cars I've owned, I frankly just didn't care; it was just a car.
When I drive my mercedes, I just love the solid, dependable, steady sense I get. I'm not just getting there; I'm enjoying the drive.

unions are dinosaurs
 

when america was going thru the industrial revolution employers treated workers like slaves. unions saved the day. today the workplace is so open that workers freedom to move from job to job enforces a competition among employees to offer better wages, conditions and benefits.
therefor, unions are just leaches that skim money from both employers and workers without giving anything you would'nt get anyway. in america there is no need for unions any more.
look at delta airlines...long term pilots have built up their salaries only to reach a point where they are making so much money that it bugs the financial crap out of delta. union rules prohibit delta from replacing a 58 year old pilot making 110k with a 32 year old making 48k. so delta plans bankruptcy which will allow them to force 58 year old pilot to work for 65k. the union is powerless and is the first one to agree in order to keep the union dues flowing. so now, instead of just delta fighting to stay alive and the pilot fighting to stay alive...you have the union fighting to stay alive - at who's expense?

I disagree with some of the statements concerning GM. The problem with GM is that they are not making car consumers want to buy. All the rest are just excuses.

As far as wages and benefits, Toyota pays about the same wages as GM. Their entire process from design to manufacturing is more than GM/Ford. Toyota takes care of their employees and the workers in turn go the extra mile.

Toyota can sell cars without huge rebates.

All GM/Ford want to do is make as many cars as possible in a day. If the stampings are out of spec. instead of shutting down and adjusting the press (can take upwards of 4 hrs for some operations), they just drill addtional holes or use hammers.

At Toyota, an assembly worker can shut the line down for a quality concern.

I'm not famiiar with the MB manufacturing process, but my guess is that it is very labor intensive and operator dependent for quality.

At the component level, I know of a manufacturer that had been making parts for GM/Ford/Chrysler for over 50 years, when they started making parts for Toyota, Toyota required several additonal quality checks and it was found that the supplier was not capable of producing the parts to Toyota Specs. Infact, 1 hr of production required 1 hr of checks, as some of the checks were time intensive and had to be carried out in a lab envirnment.

As a result of this, the supplier in question, invested addtional capital to improve the process. Ironic parts is, GM/Ford started getting the better quality parts with no effort on their part, as the same manufacturing line was producing parts for them as well!

I'm not familiar with the MB manufacturing process, so I cannot comment, but I suspect that it is very inefficient and labor intensive, resulting in overpriced cars. As the MB brand image dilutes, they will not be able to charge (possibly a $10-20k premimum) in the future.

I am a fan of GM products, vintage products. The issue as I see it, isn't the unions, does anyone really believe that a GM product would be cheaper if the unions didn't exist? The retail price is driven by demand. Would the quality of the aluminum part made in Mexico be any less likey to fail if the guy bolting it on weren't a member of the UAW. GM's troubles are self inflicted from the design and accounting departments. Americans abuse their cars, failure to design for this is inexecusable. Allowing excessive use of cheap materials that are prone to breakage leads to a perception of cheap quality.ex.Chevrolet door handles and hinges 1980's. Brand loyalty is everything, in 1984 I drove my first car (1965 Impala)to the parts dept. of my local Chevrolet Dealer, the reception was not a pleasant experience, I was directed to the junkyard and told to take my junkheap with me. I haven't been to a Chevrolet Dealer since. In fairness when I went to the local Mercedes dealer to purchase a new trunk emblem years later, the counter lady stared at my blue jeans, peered down her nose and asked in a very loud and disaproving voice "Diesel?". The people and the product that represent a corporation in dealing with the customer can affect the bottom line.

Hey all.

I have a 90' 124, and I have never had a better car. I have had VW, BMW, Honda:eek: Toyota:eek: and Audi, but the MB124 is the best!!! Its a great ride, low noise, smooth and its well built. Its starts every morning, its cheap to maintain, and its simple, yet advanced!!! If you are doing something to the car and its seems difficult you are doing it wrong. I maintain my cars my self. If you take care of your MB it takes care og you. You can't compare a MB to a Toyota etc. MB has allways and still is leading in the market. They have the most advanced cars!!! Thats because they use a lot og energy on developing the cars. If you are going to compare a Toyota with a MB you have to take a Brand Toyota new compare it to a 15 years old MB just to get near a result you can use, and the MB will still be a better ride!!!!

What is a "124"?

Now that I have a MB, I will chime in. I think some may think they are more troublesome, because more MB owners like them to be in perfect order. Also, these cars are more complex that other cars of the same vintage and it seems like more can go wrong.

My MB is a 1985 and I am sure there is nothing more wrong with it than the average 1985 car with 264K miles. My car is not perfect, but I am learning to live with its flaws and will repair them as I have the time.

My current problems are "stuck spark plugs", water leak into the RR floor pan, cassette player is very slow to work, minor lifter clack on the right side of engine, two windows not working, leaking RR taillamp, antenna grommet needs replaced, as does antenna, dead paint on top.

These are not really so much problems as they are just routine maintainence items listed below:

I paid $1000 for the car, which is in good shape, considering the year model. I had to pay an additional $100 for shipping, $100 in taxes/registration, $20 for brake pads, $150 for mufflers, $20 for spark plugs, $25 for oil change (will need another soon, as the oil was very dirty), so as you can see, I am slowly sinking money into it, but it these are things that it needs. More needed too, but I am being cautious, because I do not want to sink a lot of $$$ into a 20 year old car with 264K miles. With these miles/age, who knows what major problem could crop up next?

Again, maintainence items- need to change the transmission fluid and filter, change out the green coolant, new seals for the taillamp (right side), install front brake pads, remove "cowl" and check drains under there.

Luckily, so far, I do not have a lot of the problems that some folks have with these cars. My dash lights are still working perfectly and I do not have any rust issues, save for the bottoms of the doors where the drains have stopped up. :rolleyes:


In conclusion/summary: Overall for a 20 year old car, it is pretty well. I have had much newer/lower mileage cars with more problems.

Another #1 key thing to remember is that it also depends on how well the car has been treated/maintained. These cars are costly to maintain and I am sure that a LOT of these cars are neglected more often than your average make of car. :)

124 is another model series - yours is a 126.

I have owned several MB's over the past 20 years and every one got me in excess of 300K miles. Yes they all have thier quirks, but to me that is minor, and the DIY part of owning them is part of the fun. I suspect I aint the only one on this forum that has become a weekend warrior MB DIY-er. It's kinda my hobby at this point. And you couldnt beat me bad enough to get me to switch to a honda or toyota. They are nice cars, but they are not MB's.

Reality check on the price of parts too. In troubleshooting an issue with a '99 Chebby s10 pick up truck I called the dealer to get the price on a fuel sending unit for the tank level indication. Come to find out I can't get it without the fuel pump too:eek:. Dealer quoted over $600 for theirs. The local McParts has it for right at $300. In addition, you have to drop the fuel tank or lift the bed to do the job. The others (GM/Ford) are building disposable cars.

I just hope MB continues to build affordable parts for the 123/126 cars.