Our 190E has had two expensive problems for which I had to seek help elsewhere - trans failed and head gasket oiled up the cooling system. Our Honda has had no such problems - i.e. nothing I can't handle inexpensively myself or live with.

Still, in most conditions, the Merc is MUCH nicer to drive than the Honda. I cured a vibration/noise problem with about $125 of motor and tranny mounts. For the Honda, a similar problem would take $400 worth of parts - I live with it. Although the Honda tranny hasn't failed, it shifts with a mighty jerk that WILL need repair eventually. Other parts HAVE needed replacement on the Honda too, such as a front axle and speed sensor.

Time will tell which is cheaper to keep running down the road, but if my old Integra was any measure, my money is on the Honda. Still, every car I have worked on over the years has been on a learning curve - that is just the nature of DIY. If inefficiency at the job is balanced against knowledge and confidence gained, it is well worth the trials and time spent. The more I understand the car, the better I'll be able to handle situations that will occur on the road, regardless which one I'm driving at the time.

Steve

__________________
'91 MB 190E 2.3
'08 RAV4 Ltd 3.5
'83 Lazy Daze m'home 5.7

Well, I don't want to seem nasty, but how on earth did a timing belt on your Honda shear off it's teeth at 158,000 miles? Was it the original belt? On our old Mazda I change the belt every 60K-miles or so, and avoid that problem. Since most Honda engines are interference engines, you're very lucky you didn't damage the engine.

If you care for cars in such a manner, no car will hold up very well.

__________________
John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

The scorecard so far on my 89 300E:
Radiator
Foglight lens (2)
fan bracket, idler pulley, fan pulley, tensioner shock
A/C compressor, high pressure coolant hose and dryer
OVP, fuel pump relay, coolant temp sensor, O2 sensor
CIS-E control unit (ouch!!)
Fuel pumps (ouch twice)
Climate control actuators( Woohoo!!)
rear brake discs (not bad)
Transmission
complete head job including all new valve guides, timing chains and guides
New front and rear crankshaft seals
front flex disc
radio
fuel pressure regulator ( why does that thing cost that much?)
Antenna mast
Flywheel sensor
And water pump (come on..$230 for a damn waterpump??)

Still needs; Fuel distributor, all new injectors, engine wiring harness, belt tensioner, neutral safety switch and rear window regulator

The only 'repeat' I have seen is that something is continuosly failing.

About the story of the timing belt, I wasn't insinuating that you would put one on a Mercedes. It was a reference to doing
any repair on a Mercedes for $25. Heck Steve, I'll bet you charge more than that just to look at one!!

BTW, methinks me thinks is one word.

John you can't help but seem nasty, after all you are Canadian!!:p
I don't know if it was the original or not. I forgot to stop for gas and ran out driving to work one morning. I was in sight of a gas station when it stuttered and tried to restart the car by letting out on the clutch while in gear at around 40 mph. The result was that the belt teeth on the crank pulley stripped in place.
As far as keeping my cars up I have a good reputation. Several people who know me usually want my cars at new car time because they know that I keep them up.

so i guess the concensus is that mercedes might have it's reputation lingering on from the 70's and 80's but when it comes to the reliability factor that's opinionated.
between my 87 260E and my 87 toyota corolla, my 260 has 118K miles and i bought it when it had 90K. I've spent about 9000 on it in two years since i'ive owned it.
versus my corolla that i bought ten years ago when it had 125K miles and i got sick of it when it reached 289K and i just dont drive it anymore. total spent on the corolla in 10 years, $500. that was for the brakes and muffler.
the benz i had to get towed 5 times in two years, the corolla.. not once. i could never rely on any mercedes, either current or the ones i owned in the past to be me primary/only vehicle. i always need a second one "incase" it dies. versus the corolla which never left me stranded. same goes for my friend who owns a 400E now after selling his honda with 300K plus miles. he's owned the 30K mile 92 400E for less than a year and has already spend more on the car than he did on the honda for the life of that car... well i guess mercedes is not all that we think it is after all. perhaps it's a good "hobby" car for one who likes to work on the car every single weekend but then again we're owners so we can complain. can't we ?

Well said! I hope to actually drive mine one day!!

Comparing to a 1987 Corrolla is kind of a stretch... that's a very basic bare-bones car. And I'm not sure I'd really want to be driving (pleasure) or transporting my family (safety) in that car at 0K miles, let alone 289K miles.

I bought my 300E at 87K miles expecting it would cost more in maintenance and be more hassle than a Toyota, and I was right! But, it's a lot more car than a Toyota, too.

When I went looking for a 4-dr sedan, a new Toyota Camry was one choice I looked at. It was a nice, boring, car... but seemed very expensive if you got one with any amenities.

So I started looking at higher-end used cards, and liked what I saw with the Benz's. My goal in getting a nice used 300E was overall cheaper cost-of-ownership (cradle to grave) than a new Toyota Camry.

So far, that's been the case, and... I'm not driving a Camry. Priceless.

__________________
1992 300E Sedan (Sold)
1999 E320 Wagon (Sold)
1995 E320 Sedan
1995 E320 Wagon

"My goal in getting a nice used 300E was overall cheaper cost-of-ownership (cradle to grave) than a new Toyota Camry."

YOUR cost may be low, but 'cradle-to-grave' does not apply to your Benz, since you didn't buy new. Had you, it would have been much more expensive, considering double the price new. Likewise - even with the depreciation difference - a viable comparison would have been buying a USED Camry vs. the Benz.

My guess is you felt you would be happier with a used Benz than any Toyota, regardless of cost, and that makes any other comparison just a rationalization. Buying used introduces so many variables, you just can't predict what expenses you will face. Still, statistics would be on your side it you chose the Toyota.

You want a cheap-to-own car that is fun to drive? I bought my '88 Integra new for $11k. Twincam 24V, 6500 rpm at peak power, 4-whl disks, programmed port injection, decent ride, and could handle circles around our 190E - and just as roomy inside with a better driving position. Full manual everything, but that much more reliable. I had 1 breakdown in 186k miles, and even towing on that was covered by recall warranty. No non-maintenance repairs except rodding the radiator. I would still be tooling around in it except for some 16yr old dingleberry in his dad's SUV and cellphone plastered on his ear and the attention span.... well, of a dingleberry. I guess my trunk was as good a brake as anything he could find.

I really enjoy our 190E when I get to drive it. It rides great, is quiet, has a pleasant 'throat' to the exhaust, and handles decently. But someday I may tire of the tinkering, and how well will the charm wear?

Steve

__________________
'91 MB 190E 2.3
'08 RAV4 Ltd 3.5
'83 Lazy Daze m'home 5.7

My father bought his first MB the same year I was born 1959 -- he always bought new MB's and drove them until the late 80's -- when he felt they had become too $$

I can tell you they have never been easy or cheap to fix. I can not even count how many water pumps we have replaced over the years.

I still have a 250S that my dad bought for my mother in 1966 for their 25th and his wonderful 71 6.3 -- they are still around because most of the parts have been replaced -- just kidding!

My 88sl has had its share of problems - all the stupid AC parts -- Water pumps -- I could go on -- It still is a GREAT car. The thing is that with MB, people often spend the money to fix parts that they would just live with in other cars . I just replaced trim parts on the SL to the tune of + $800.00 this year, I would never have replaced them on another car -- I wanted it to be as it was and now is again -- that is what is great about the cars.

I want to love the new ones but I can say without question my 95 and 2000 Jag XJ's are better cars than the new MB's as far as cost of ownership - the 2000 is so fast and the 95 has been the most trouble free car I have ever owned.

I am out looking for a new car and I do not think it will be a MB this time. I do feel sorry for some when I read the forum - many do not know what they are getting into, especially a multi owner car when often someone in the chain of ownership was not able to fix the car because of the $$.

Guess I'll jump in.

I have never before had a 17-year-old car with 200k plus that I was still content to own. It's still a nice ride. This is my 80-miles-per-day commuter car, and the net operating costs have been very low.

Actually, I have never had a Japanese car that was not very rusty well before 200k, where the 124 is holding its ground on that front. I've been through many cars, and watched Hondas, Mazdas, Nissans, and Toyotas decompose long before their mechanicals were worn out.

Frankly, rust is usually what sends many otherwise good cars to the boneyard in New England. Hopefully, cars from the 90s will perform better on this front, though I already see problems among some Japanese 10-year-olds.

The old 124 is also holding up better mechanically than a variety of BMWs that I have been through. Way better than Audis. I once sent a 5000s to 'heaven' with just 90k on it. Nightmare.

I'd have to be honest, though, and say that if I did not perform my own repairs, and realize the dramatic parts savings from doing this, the 124 probably would not have been economically viable when I 'inherited' it at around 180k. I would have been 'underwater' on it pretty quickly, since the residual value is quite low. This is not to say that it was going to be any worse to get in shape than any other car of that age. Heck, for most cars, no one would have bothered to revive it. My interest was in having a car I liked to drive that would earn its keep in 'utility value'.

As mentioned, I have not heard very good things about the newer models.
Keep in mind that the new MBs are generally much cheaper in real dollars than the older cars. The window sticker for my 1986 300E says $40k.
That would be over $67,000 in 2003 dollars!

FWIW, I would honestly consider upgrading to a newer 124 when this one finally wears out, perhaps a 400E. Overall, these are very good cars. Though I would miss the manual tranny...

__________________
1986 300E 5-Speed 240k mi.

Well, sbourg, thanks for the free BS psychoanalysis.

My comparison was simply what you can get for similar cost of ownership. It seems to me that's a better basis for comparison, as most of us have a specific budget to spend on a car.

__________________
1992 300E Sedan (Sold)
1999 E320 Wagon (Sold)
1995 E320 Sedan
1995 E320 Wagon

Manny's motto:

If you can not afford to drive, maintain, repair, love & cherish your Mercedes........buy an " appliance ", i.e. Toyota, Honda, Saturn, Huyndai, Kia, whatever.
As far as economics, you will be miles ahead.
You can buy & wear out three of them, for the price of one Mercedes, but will you get the pleasure/satisfaction out of them ?

__________________
2007 C 230 Sport.

We ain't here to defend Mercedes Benz-
Only to share, enjoy and mend.
No doubt there are other cars that are cheaper and do not chug-
But when you drive them - do you feel smug?
I for one have no allegiance to the three pointed star -
Just appreciate a damn fine car.

__________________
NormanB
230 TE (W124) 1989 with 153,000 miles on the clock - hoping for at least another 100K

I guess I'll put my 2 cents worth in:

In June of this year I bought a 1993 500 SEL from a family friend. I had a 98 Lexus ES300 at the time, which I bought new. I sold my Lexus and bought the Merc for a difference of $3,000.00. I did this for 3 reasons:

1. I needed more room.
2. I thought the 500 SEL would be safe and reliable transportation for several more years.
3. Frankly, I wanted the "ego upgrade" of the big Benz.

So, for $3K I figured it was worth it.

In the last 90 days I have spent $6,000.00 on various repairs for the Benz. That puts me at $9,000.00 out-of-pocket in 3 months, and I'm now looking at another $500.00 for PS gearbox work.
The $9K investment is almost exactly 10 times what the Lexus costs me over the 5 1/2 years I owned it. Maybe I bought a bad Benz. Or, maybe I have a bad inde shop. I don't really know. I do know that I'm quickly becoming a much better mechanic than I ever really wanted to be.

You know what's the most troubling thing about the whole deal? 3 weeks ago I felt it necessary to buy my wife a brand new Toyota 4Runner because I absolutely HAD to have 1 car in the family I KNEW would run whenever called upon. It's a shame to have such a big comfortable Benz, but not have the confidence to drive it anywhere but to work and back for fear it will strand me. I never, ever had that fear with my Lexus.

So for me, the bottom line is, since I'm not ultra-rich, I really need a car that I can DEPEND on more than I need an ego stroke. It appears the price of that lesson is $9,000.00 and climbing.

Just my story. Please don't kick me out of the club

__________________
1993 500 SEL 121,000
2003 Toyota 4Runner 4X4 Limited (Sweet!)
1995 Ford Bronco 351 Windsor 135K miles (Hunting truck)

Past Vehicles
1999 Landrover Discovery II 46,000 (Sold)
1998 Lexus ES300 (Sold to get my Benz)
1973 Chevy Nova SS (drove it till the body fell apart in '87)
1971 Chevy Camaro (wrecked in high school)

i am astonished. all these stories are so different from my experiences.

i have a 560sel that i purchased new in 1986. it recently turned 250,000 miles. it has never had a water pump failure. at 200,000 miles, pulled heads and replaced guides, valves, camshaft and timing chain. at 220,000 miles rebuilt tranny. never had any ac problems until 235,000 miles. had a leak that we could not find. rebuilt system to use 134a. no problems since.

interior, blue leather, still looks brand new. but it does get polished and fed at least once every 5 years.

it is on its third set of spark plugs. its second set of spark plug cables and boots. its second distributor cap.

original radiator was replaced at about 210,000 miles.

only towing experience with the car was on thanksgiving day several years ago. i was scorching the hardy toll road at about 120 when the engine quit. the original fuel pump finally fried.

suspension components were replaced at about 180,000 miles. none since.

vickers pump has been rebuilt twice.

sunroof has never leaked. all rubber window seals remain in great shape. instrument lighting has never been replaced.

brake pads and rotors are my only complaint. i go through them too fast. my mechanic says that it is my driving style.

oh, and i did lose the master cylinder one day. i was only at 30mph. and the car had 150,000miles.

my conclusion after 250,000 miles and almost 17 years: WHAT A GREAT CAR. it is still my favorite for high speed back road driving in all conditions. has never let me down.

i suppose one of the secrets to this level of reliability is having a perfectionist of a mechanic and to allow him to take care of the car on some kind of a routine basis.

the car used to get that kind of loving care at intercontinental motors when bill pennel and charlie thomas owned it. but after the schnitzer[sic]/autonation shuffles, i moved it to an indy. had i not made that move, i am certain that i would be less than thrilled with owning such an old beast - the dealer would have made my life running an old benz painful so as to convince me to buy a new one.

i would like to conclude by stating that i could tell the same story about most of my other benzes. from the first one that i ever owned a 1973 220 that i drove for 3 years and 140,000 miles and replaced with a 1976 450sel that i drove for 220,000 miles and replaced with one of the first us 300e's in 1985.

now, that was the benz that drove me crazy. i loved driving it. except for the damn squeaky seats. and that serpentine belt almost killed me when in a houston downpour one morning the belt got so wet as to slip enough that the a/c clutch disengaged: instant fogging of all windows. how fast can you handle that situation safely? and it needed another 2 inches of wheelbase, not really a 4 passenger car unless the rear seat passengers were two children.

so, after a year, it was replaced by the 560sel.


what more can i say, except that i have other benzes and i don't think that they have been unnaturally maintenance intensive.

in fact, measured over 100,000 miles, my 1996 gmc yukon has been the most maintenance intensive vehicle that i have ever owned.

4wd system out in 30,000 miles

2 master cylinders

fuel injection system

many brake pads.

3rd set of tires

in signing off, here is my current benz fleet...

1986 560sel - 250,000 miles
1987 560sec - 83,000 miles
1979 6.9 - 50,000 miles
1995 e320cab - 11,000 miles
1997 s500c - 22,000 miles

i also want to add, these cars are always driven at 8/10 or more. because of that, i do insist that the cars are maintained impeccably. i do not want to be running at high speeds and have the car fail in critical areas. i consider these cars sports cars disguised as sedans and i think of every running of them as an autocross event.

the crashworthiness of these m-b vehicles must be mentioned. i had one of the first honda crx. what a lot of fun. i drove it hard and fast. but it always scared me in that if it ever got hit, it was probably bye-bye. i think the same demise would have been the consequence if hit in my vw scirocco.

same reason that i quit driving lotus as an everyday. 18 wheelers never saw me.

enough said, i think.