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  #61  
Old 07-14-2017, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubyagee View Post
After a complete audit is completed on the existing funding. Throw some skimmers in prison.

Fuel taxes are crazy as is tax decals for big rigs. That money is not making it to where it was intended.

Mileage tax is not the answer either.
X2, Cook County Il is trying to pass a surgery drink tax of .02 per ounce. If they cannot get that through they will lay off 400 workers at the county jail. WHAT. They are not loosing that money as in that tax going away it is just another money grab, and if they don't get it the streets will be less safe. Typical politician BS.
In IN they just raised the fuel tax by .10/gal said to be going straight to road repairs, they should raise it by .25/ gal if that were the case.

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  #62  
Old 07-14-2017, 10:35 AM
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Big Oil Just Woke Up to Threat of Rising Electric Car Demand - Bloomberg
Quote:
OPEC quintupled its forecast for sales of plug-in EVs, and oil producers from Exxon Mobil Corp. to BP Plc also revised up their outlooks in the past year, according to a study by Bloomberg New Energy Finance released on Friday. The London-based researcher expects those cars to reduce oil demand 8 million barrels by 2040, more than the current combined production of Iran and Iraq.
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  #63  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
The electricity cost per mile to run an EV is miniscule compared to gasoline or diesel. Any "fuel" tax on EVs would have to be greater than the cost of the electricity even if it's purchased from the grid at peak times. It's much more straightforward to tax miles traveled and it doesn't penalize more efficient drivers.

Also EV battery packs consume some electricity when the vehicle is parked, especially in cold climates. With a "fuel tax" on evs you would be penalizing people who drive less.
The cost per mile of a remote-polluting Li-on powered car is minuscule compared to a similar car powered by a modern CDI engine? Really?

I know you fancy yourself to be a 'numbers' guy but I've done some quick calculations on the costs in post #6 on this thread and if you level the playing field by introducing road-tax issues it looks to me like its $10 for remote-polluting EV vs $12 for the CDI powered car for a hypothetical 235 mile trip. Where am I making my errors or do you consider an 83% equivalent cost to be minuscule?

You mention the EV aren't currently playing road tax 'for good reason'. What exactly is the good reason? Why shouldn't they be paying road taxes? Are they not using roads like everyone else?

Your 2035 graph showing remote-polluting vehicle sales in Europe on 2035 is certainly interesting. I'm wondering if CARB produced a similar graph in 1990 when it mandated that 8% of the cars in California had to be remote-polluting vehicles by 1998. Of course when reality intruded on their projections they softened and ultimately dropped their requirements but I understand they now have a new mandate for remote-polluting vehicles in California? Maybe they'll do better this time.

I'm convinced that the future of cars is indeed electric power, but not with Li-on power. I've driven a Model S and the acceleration with 4 wheel drive with high-torque electric motors off-the-line is something that has to be experienced to be believed. You can also do some amazing things with tractions and stability control when you can instantaneously change torque and speed at any wheel in the millisecond timeframe. You've stated that once you drive an electric powered car you can't go back, well I've done so and have no plans to buy a Tesla.

Call me a crazy luddite but since people have been trying to sell electric cars to the public for over 100 years and to date never succeeded in any significant numbers I'm going to have to wait until annual sales get to the 10% level before I'm willing to label the Li-on powered remote polluting vehicle technology disruptive and inevitable technology. I know its crazy but thats where I am.

I currently personally know 3 Tesla owners, all of them love their cars. All of them are multimillionaires that own 4-6 cars each. All of them drive them in nice climates like the slums of Beverly Hills and all of them use them as around-town commuter cars, all of them have garages where its easy to store and plug the cars in for charging. When I ask them if they'd consider owning the Tesla as their only car 2 of the 3 say 'no' because they need cars that are capable of longer endurance on a regular basis and since "time-is-money" they don't want to spend time re-charging on the road. Seems reasonable to me. By the way one of the owners is leasing his Model S and is planning on turning it in at the end of the lease because of issues associated with parts availability when his wife dinged the curb and apparently destroyed a couple thousand dollars worth of 'autopilot' sensors the front bumper assembly. It took 12 weeks or something for the parts to become available, so at least one Tesla owner isn't going to continue with them.

The genius of Elon Musk was in creating this market by realizing there was a market for a high performance luxury sedan for people that wanted to be green. His product is amazing and he's been very successful in this market. The Model 3 is a totally different product aimed at a totally different audience and as such its going to have to face a totally different level of expectations and performance from its new owners. This is especially true for someone contemplating Model 3 ownership as their only car. I also personally know one of the people currently on the list for delivery of a Model 3 and he's indicates he's going to 'backstop' his Model 3 ownership by keeping his Lexus for days when the remote-polluting vehicle won't fit the mission profile of the day.

Many companies have tried this market and to date we've not seen market penetration higher than a fraction of a percentage of 1% in sales. We've also had to sweeten the pot with federal tax incentives to the tune of 8K dollars. Again if this is such a revolutionary and disruptive technology why to we have to pay people to adopt it? Did we have to do subsidies to encourage the widespread adoption of the iPhone?

Perhaps the Model 3 will be the first successful widespread remote-polluting Li-on powered vehicle that is a commercial success. It will certainly be interesting to see how many of the 373K pre-orders result in actual sales. I'm betting that its going to be a lot fewer that 373K sales.

We'll see.
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  #64  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
So what? Most modern cars (not just EVs) already have black boxes that can record event data which can be used in accident investigations. The cell phone in your pocket is constantly recording and reporting your location and activities. Most free Apps are financed by selling your private data to 3rd parties.

The scenario you describe isn't something new or unique to EVs.

For EVs? Why not?
It is... in an EV you are already committing you were the driver in the car. With a phone you are not.
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  #65  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:35 AM
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There is one more piece that doesnt make EV look good.

If I were to take an EV on the trail or lets say to the Kalahari desert, what do I do when I run out of juice?

set up camp and run a generator?
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  #66  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Zulfiqar View Post
It is... in an EV you are already committing you were the driver in the car. With a phone you are not.
What?
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  #67  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
What?
lol.

this is the reason that the spyware on teslas is coming under fire...

Please remember that the world also exists outside the CONUS.
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  #68  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Zulfiqar View Post
lol.

this is the reason that the spyware on teslas is coming under fire...

Please remember that the world also exists outside the CONUS.
No, I mean what the hell did you just say. It doesn't make any sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulfiqar View Post
It is... in an EV you are already committing you were the driver in the car. With a phone you are not.
???
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  #69  
Old 07-14-2017, 01:14 PM
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Please read your comment again, and then mine.

you said that such activity is being logged by phones. With a phone you are just a person who can be walking.. A car with this spyware is confirms the car is actively on a road.

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  #70  
Old 07-14-2017, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TimFreeh View Post
By the way one of the owners is leasing his Model S and is planning on turning it in at the end of the lease because of issues associated with parts availability when his wife dinged the curb and apparently destroyed a couple thousand dollars worth of 'autopilot' sensors the front bumper assembly. It took 12 weeks or something for the parts to become available,
This is a factor that almost no tesla owner wants to speak of. Tesla parts supplies are an absolute nightmare, firstly they are not available and secondly they are shipped in glacial time.

The most important link in a cars success is servicability and thats how mercedes benz won the markets years ago and also today. (e.g. you can buy W123 parts at the dealer without issues) - buying spares for a 2 yr old 80k dollar tesla seems as if ordering an obsolete part.

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