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  #31  
Old 11-01-2004, 12:56 AM
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I'm no tree-hugger, but I don't think any right minded person can argue against clean air legislation PROVIDED it is applied equally to all polluters.
RWThomas1 hit the nail on the head, cars are NOT the problem anymore in North America. It is the industrial polluters, and unregulated vehicles that are causing the problems and the politicians don't have the guts to do anything about it. Much easier to penalize the car buyers and drivers that have been brainwashed into thinking they are still the reason the smog accumulates in our cities.
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  #32  
Old 11-01-2004, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dervman
I'm no tree-hugger, but I don't think any right minded person can argue against clean air legislation PROVIDED it is applied equally to all polluters.
RWThomas1 hit the nail on the head, cars are NOT the problem anymore in North America. It is the industrial polluters, and unregulated vehicles that are causing the problems and the politicians don't have the guts to do anything about it. Much easier to penalize the car buyers and drivers that have been brainwashed into thinking they are still the reason the smog accumulates in our cities.
Right on target, bro.

Our main electricity supplier here in Atlanta and the surrounding area, Georgia Power, puts out more air pollution, water pollution, and solid waste pollutants than ALL of the cars in the metro area COMBINED! And that's just one company! There are factories, refineries, and utility companies of all types that are belching out WAY more pollution than cars ever have.

Then there's trucks, city busses, school busses, trains, planes, tractors and other farm equipment, heavy construction equipment, generators, incinerators, lawnmowers/weedeaters/chainsaws/leafblowers/etc. (surprisingly gross polluters!), military vehicles...... all of which are completely unregulated by the EPA or CARB, and all of which are putting out more air pollution than modern cars AND well-kept older cars like our trusty old MB diesels.

The clueless diesel car haters are barking up the wrong tree.

Mike
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  #33  
Old 11-01-2004, 09:49 AM
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And don't forget the emissions of cattle...........

The tree hugging left won't be happy untill all cars are off the road. EXCEPT their own of course.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of them came up with a converter they whould stick up the cows patooty ...............I seriously doubt the cow would listen to their enviro-nazi mantra however.
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  #34  
Old 11-01-2004, 10:47 AM
Diesel Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinsCE
i live 30 minutes from mt baldy and you can see the air, in LA. Why should one county with about 8X the people living there than should be living there dictate the rest of the state? Obviously its overcrowded and there is always going to be a bunch of pollution in a metropolis. What, Chicago or indianapolis doesnt have smog? CARB isnt the solution. LA dropping into the pacific IS. I think if Mercedes would market and push the performance diesels here, and not jack the prices way too high like everything else they sell these days, there would be no problem selling them. I dont know anyone who would turn down a 300 hp, 400 lb ft of torque car that gets 30 MPG. And the Gov. needs to get off his high horse, stop thinking about becoming president and actually DO something, anything, so far in office he has not done a single thing, about anything. More of the same, useless politicians and idiots in office. Hybrids are way too expensive after you buy them and will never catch on.Useless anyway, with the AC on, driving on the freeway at 60, you get like 10 MPG. Usually theres like 1 tech. that can work on one in any given shop, if that many. Had the pleasure of riding in one for school, nice little MPG digital deal right there on the dash. With the AC on in the parking lot, got only 15 MPG
Sorry Austin, but your statements regarding hybrids is ludicris at best. Hybrids are catching on, they are the next step in autombile evolution, and putzing around in a parking lot with the A/C running, is hardly a valid evaluation of the vehicle.

I have over 32k miles on mine, with a lifetime average so far of 51 mpg. Drivers of 04 and 05 Prius even have their A/C systems driven by electricity, instead of the engine, allowing it to shut off, and remain off at lights, further improving fuel efficiency, as well as removing that load from the engine altogether. These vehicles are rated at 60 city, 51 highway, and 55 combined, and drivers are now beating these EPA numbers as their cars get broken in.

Even MB is getting into the hybrid bandwagon. They have a diesel hybrid slated for production by 2008 - IMO the best of both worlds. Too bad it'll be on an $80k plus car.
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  #35  
Old 11-01-2004, 11:05 AM
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I think a diesel hybrid would be far more efficient than a gas hybrid.......If the enviro-nazis would all move to some remote pacific island and stay there.
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  #36  
Old 11-01-2004, 11:14 AM
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diesel

Gentleman,

I am an European born US citizen and I have lived in the USA since 1980.
i was just in Europe for the last 3 years and. In Portugal I would say 70% of
all cars are diesel. MB would be about 95%. You can buy any model including US cars with a diesel engine. I was driving a 87 300SDL. Yes diesel is more efficient and breaks down less but the main reason is fuel price. Europeanse pay about $4.75 USD per gallon of gasoline. Diesel is about 30% cheaper. Yes the cars cost more but in long run are still cheaper. So for the europeans is mainly cost effective. Diesel in our country in more expensive. Yes you get better MPG so essentialy they are cheaper to run on a long run but americans dont keep their cars for as long as the europeans.

good luck
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  #37  
Old 11-01-2004, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cascais
Gentleman,

I am an European born US citizen and I have lived in the USA since 1980.
i was just in Europe for the last 3 years and. In Portugal I would say 70% of
all cars are diesel. MB would be about 95%. You can buy any model including US cars with a diesel engine. I was driving a 87 300SDL. Yes diesel is more efficient and breaks down less but the main reason is fuel price. Europeanse pay about $4.75 USD per gallon of gasoline. Diesel is about 30% cheaper. Yes the cars cost more but in long run are still cheaper. So for the europeans is mainly cost effective. Diesel in our country in more expensive. Yes you get better MPG so essentialy they are cheaper to run on a long run but americans dont keep their cars for as long as the europeans.

good luck
That may be true because we tend to drive far more miles. After all Western Europe in its entirety is about the size of the lower 48 states....... things here are more spread out as a result.
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1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
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1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  #38  
Old 11-01-2004, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whunter
GM and Ford buyer surveys show little or no market for diesels in cars, why should they waste engineering R&D money on at best a submarket?
What R&D money will be wasted? Can't say for Ford but DC's Jeep Grand Cherokees etc are all avail already w/dsl motors in Europe and have been for years. Even back when AMC owned Jeep the 80's era CJ's built in the US ran 4 cyl Suzy dsl but built for export only. US Cherokees had a 2.1L Renault dsl option in the mid 80's. Granted that was bad idea and didn't help the dsl image in the US at all. Point being there is no extra R&D money needed but there will be some marketing money required to wake up the US buyers.
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  #39  
Old 11-01-2004, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemover
Right on target, bro.

Our main electricity supplier here in Atlanta and the surrounding area, Georgia Power, puts out more air pollution, water pollution, and solid waste pollutants than ALL of the cars in the metro area COMBINED! And that's just one company! There are factories, refineries, and utility companies of all types that are belching out WAY more pollution than cars ever have.

Then there's trucks, city busses, school busses, trains, planes, tractors and other farm equipment, heavy construction equipment, generators, incinerators, lawnmowers/weedeaters/chainsaws/leafblowers/etc. (surprisingly gross polluters!), military vehicles...... all of which are completely unregulated by the EPA or CARB, and all of which are putting out more air pollution than modern cars AND well-kept older cars like our trusty old MB diesels.

The clueless diesel car haters are barking up the wrong tree.

Mike
The main problem is you can't fight big business-big business= big bucks and big bucks can get you anything in this country. The government will protect them to the bitter end.

And about the hybrids-I don't see it catching on at all out here in the sticks. Maybe in the cities, I don't know. There is one hybrid in this area and, after looking it over, I must say God help you in the event of an accident. You'd have more protection driving a beer can.

Isn't Honda or Toyota coming out with a new diesel that meets U.S. requirements? Thought I read that somewhere recently.

Cheers,

Bill
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  #40  
Old 11-01-2004, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jseries
What R&D money will be wasted? Can't say for Ford but DC's Jeep Grand Cherokees etc are all avail already w/dsl motors in Europe and have been for years. Even back when AMC owned Jeep the 80's era CJ's built in the US ran 4 cyl Suzy dsl but built for export only. US Cherokees had a 2.1L Renault dsl option in the mid 80's. Granted that was bad idea and didn't help the dsl image in the US at all. Point being there is no extra R&D money needed but there will be some marketing money required to wake up the US buyers.
I think its the EPA and all the hurdles they would have to jump ..........and the costs of that to offer the diesel engines in those modles.
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  #41  
Old 11-01-2004, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill murrow
The main problem is you can't fight big business-big business= big bucks and big bucks can get you anything in this country. The government will protect them to the bitter end.

And about the hybrids-I don't see it catching on at all out here in the sticks. Maybe in the cities, I don't know. There is one hybrid in this area and, after looking it over, I must say God help you in the event of an accident. You'd have more protection driving a beer can.

Isn't Honda or Toyota coming out with a new diesel that meets U.S. requirements? Thought I read that somewhere recently.

Cheers,

Bill
In a serious accident, what would keep battery acid from immolating the passengers......or are these gell cells?
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1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  #42  
Old 11-01-2004, 12:17 PM
Diesel Power
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor
In a serious accident, what would keep battery acid from immolating the passengers......or are these gell cells?
They are NiMh batteries, just like the rechargables you can buy at Wal Mart internally. The ones in my Prius are round, and about the size of a "D" cell battery. I don't remember how many cells it has total, but the battery pack makes for a nice little shelf in the back section of the trunk by the seat. If I didn't point it out to you, you wouldn't notice it's presence. The new battery pack in the '04 and newer Prius, the cells look like cassette cartridges. If the car is involved in a major collision, the system triggers relays that totally isolates the battery pack from the vehicle.
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  #43  
Old 11-01-2004, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Diesel Power
They are NiMh batteries, just like the rechargables you can buy at Wal Mart internally. The ones in my Prius are round, and about the size of a "D" cell battery. I don't remember how many cells it has total, but the battery pack makes for a nice little shelf in the back section of the trunk by the seat. If I didn't point it out to you, you wouldn't notice it's presence. The new battery pack in the '04 and newer Prius, the cells look like cassette cartridges. If the car is involved in a major collision, the system triggers relays that totally isolates the battery pack from the vehicle.
OK, that answers a BIG question I had about those. That makes all the difference. I thought they used Lead-acid batteries. I never looked at the Prius up close because I think they are butt ugly.
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1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Last edited by boneheaddoctor; 11-01-2004 at 12:33 PM.
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  #44  
Old 11-01-2004, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor
OK, that answers a BIG question I had about those. That makes all the difference. I thought they used Lead-acid batteries. I never looked at the Prius up close because I think they are butt ugly.
What hybrid isn't ugly?

Sorry hybrid owners-no offense. Just my personal taste

Cheers,

Bill
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  #45  
Old 11-01-2004, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill murrow
What hybrid isn't ugly?

Sorry hybrid owners-no offense. Just my personal taste

Cheers,

Bill
The Civic Hybrid isn't nearly as ugly. But still no beauty queen. I can imagine what it cost to keep one of these on the road for 200,000+ miles....
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1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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