Specialized Indicator for IP Timing - Page 7 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

gsxr · #91 06-30-2009, 06:39 PM

The tools should all be equally accurate, the difference is the usage:

1) Lock tool - most time consuming, and there is risk involved if you forget to remove the tool before rotating the pump or the engine

2) Static position sensor (A-B light box) - Fastest & easiest to use, zero risk, also helps identify location of IP timing tab if pump happens to be one tooth or more out of sync (this is somewhat rare, but believe me, if it does happen - you don't want to use the lock tool to locate the tang! A second person would be required if you don't have the A-B box, if you do have the box, it's a 1-person job. BT, DT.)

3) Dynamic RIV tool - allows viewing live timing with the engine running. Only needed if the timing device is suspected to not be working properly.

dieseldiehard · #92 06-30-2009, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

Nope. What you get for ~$300 is shown in the photo above, in post #83, aka the "A-B light box". This is what you need to set static pump timing when installing the pump or or adjusting the timing.

What's pictured in the WIS screen shot is the dynamic RIV tools, which allow measuring pump timing with the engine running. While this is cool, it's also not necessary for 99.44% of the work you'd ever do on the engine. And it will cost about 10x as much. I don't know anyone who has one of these.

I just looked and found I have the TDC sensor 603.589.00.21.00 "for measuring rpm and start of delivery 601, 602.91 /93 /94 /96 /97, 604.91, 605.91, 606.91 /96" ie. items 016 and 021 in the diagram.
If anyone is interested in borrowing or possible purchase - well, PM me. I don't have anything else, sorry

Tymbrymi · #93 06-30-2009, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spock505

Does the RIV tool come with all of these other bits in the diagram?

Nope. What everyone around here calls the RIV tester really isn't. The RIV tester sets the timing with the engine running. The actual method we use is the "Position Method". Here are the PDF's courtesy of GSXR's website

http://www.w124performance.com/service/w124CD1/Program/Engine/602_603/07.1-8244.pdf
http://www.w124performance.com/service/w124CD1/Program/Engine/602_603/07.1-8240.pdf

spock505 · #94 06-30-2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

The tools should all be equally accurate, the difference is the usage:

1) Lock tool - most time consuming, and there is risk involved if you forget to remove the tool before rotating the pump or the engine

2) Static RIV tool (A-B light box) - Fastest & easiest to use, zero risk, also helps identify location of IP timing tab if pump happens to be one tooth or more out of sync (this is somewhat rare, but believe me, if it does happen - you don't want to use the lock tool to locate the tang! A second person would be required if you don't have the A-B box, if you do have the box, it's a 1-person job. BT, DT.)

3) Dynamic RIV tool - allows viewing live timing with the engine running. Only needed if the timing device is suspected to not be working properly.

Many thanks for that gsxr, much appreciated!

gsxr · #95 06-30-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieseldiehard

I just looked and found I have the TDC sensor 603.589.00.21.00 "for measuring rpm and start of delivery 601, 602.91 /93 /94 /96 /97, 604.91, 605.91, 606.91 /96" ie. items 016 and 021 in the diagram.
If anyone is interested in borrowing or possible purchase - well, PM me. I don't have anything else, sorry

That is just for the TDC sensor... about $400 or so. Click here for a bit more info on the TDC sensor. You still need the RIV sensor that screws into the pump, 617-589-09-21-00, which is a mere $1000. Click here for more info. Of course, the expensive item is the Bosch digital tester ($$$$), the box you plug these sensors into.

Trust me - nobody is gonna have this stuff... and unless it shows up on eBay for pennies on the dollar, nobody ever will, lol!

samiam44 · #96 06-30-2009, 07:00 PM

THese use to be much more reasonable...

I *KNOW* someone whom owns one and repair ppl would drive 20-30 miles to use it. Very nice and easy. I think he paid $275 in about 98' for it.

M

gsxr · #97 06-30-2009, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samiam44

These use to be much more reasonable...

I *KNOW* someone whom owns one and repair ppl would drive 20-30 miles to use it. Very nice and easy. I think he paid $275 in about 98' for it.

Do you mean the "A-B light box"? Yep, it works great. You can still get one for ~$300 or so.

whunter · #98 02-14-2013, 09:52 PM

A-B light box
MB# 617 589 08 21 00

.

funola · #99 03-23-2014, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

The tools should all be equally accurate, the difference is the usage:

1) Lock tool - most time consuming, and there is risk involved if you forget to remove the tool before rotating the pump or the engine

2) Static position sensor (A-B light box) - Fastest & easiest to use, zero risk, also helps identify location of IP timing tab if pump happens to be one tooth or more out of sync (this is somewhat rare, but believe me, if it does happen - you don't want to use the lock tool to locate the tang! A second person would be required if you don't have the A-B box, if you do have the box, it's a 1-person job. BT, DT.)

3) Dynamic RIV tool - allows viewing live timing with the engine running. Only needed if the timing device is suspected to not be working properly.

Digging up an old but excellent thread. I have a few questions on 3) Dynamic RIV tool .

Does anyone on the forum have the following digital testers or have used them in the past?

http://www.w124performance.com/service/w124CD1/Program/Engine/602_603/07.1-8244.pdf

Adapter 617 589 09 21 00

Digital testers:
Bosch ETD 019.002
Sun DIT 9100
AVL 873

Bosch MOT 001.03

I am trying to figure out whether it uses a timing light or not or does it just output a digital reading on the test set? There is an inductive clamp interface between the adapter and the digital tester which leads me to think it has a timing light but then there is a setup where the adapter is not used so I'm not sure.

I've been working on a Xenon timing light triggered by the RIV port to mimic the factory digital RIV testers and want to understand it's theory of operation as much as possible.

gsxr · #**100** 03-25-2014, 09:48 AM

I believe it uses a sensor at the crankshaft to measure engine position, relative to the IP/RIV position. No timing light.

funola · #**101** 03-25-2014, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

I believe it uses a sensor at the crankshaft to measure engine position, relative to the IP/RIV position. No timing light.

I agree. It must use the TDC sensor as a reference/ time base to measure the IP/RIV lug angle position. That's why there's such a tedious procedure in section 03-345 of the W123 FSM - Checking and correcting adjustment of TDC transmitter. A similar procedure for the W124 probably exists.

http://mercedes.thatchermathias.com/w123CD2/Program/Engine/617/03-345.pdf

The timing light I am working on can trigger off the TDC transmitter or the RIV port lug. On my 85 300D, when the timing light was triggering on the TDC transmitter, the harmonic balancer marks was spot on at 20 degree after TDC (per FSM spec). That indicated the TDC transmitter was correctly adjusted. Does that also indicate there is no chain stretch?

gsxr · #**102** 03-25-2014, 12:27 PM

It's not necessarily TDC, there is a bracket which senses the harmonic balancer, but I think it's 20° off from TDC, or something like that. It just needs a reference point. And yes, I believe there is a procedure to adjust the bracket for the TDC sensor.

Chain stretch is totally separate, you really need to check the camshaft marks vs balancer. The IP can be adjusted to match the crank but the camshaft could still be out due to chain stretch. Remember the balancer indicator is adjustable a total of 3° (on the OM60x) and if it's ever been touched, you could be a couple degrees off. The indicator has to be removed during a water pump R&R so it's pretty likely to have been disturbed by now. I re-adjusted mine to TDC via dial gauge on the piston while the head was off...

BTW - just noticed you have all OM61x. Ooops. I was referring to OM60x... sorry.

funola · #**103** 03-25-2014, 01:04 PM

OM61x. or OM60x... , aren't the procedures and equipment used for timing the same?

I see Brian Carlton is banned. He is not far from me and I'd like to hook up with him to compare readings of my timing light vs his AB light RIV tester. Anyone know if Brian can be reached via PM while being banned? Anyone in contact with him?

funola · #**104** 03-27-2014, 11:12 AM

I got a hold of Brian via email. We will be getting together when it gets warmer. Should be interesting comparing results.

Generator John · #**105** 01-30-2015, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola

Digging up an old but excellent thread. I have a few questions on 3) Dynamic RIV tool .

Does anyone on the forum have the following digital testers or have used them in the past?

http://www.w124performance.com/service/w124CD1/Program/Engine/602_603/07.1-8244.pdf

Adapter 617 589 09 21 00

Digital testers:
Bosch ETD 019.002
Sun DIT 9100
AVL 873

Bosch MOT 001.03

I am trying to figure out whether it uses a timing light or not or does it just output a digital reading on the test set? There is an inductive clamp interface between the adapter and the digital tester which leads me to think it has a timing light but then there is a setup where the adapter is not used so I'm not sure.

I've been working on a Xenon timing light triggered by the RIV port to mimic the factory digital RIV testers and want to understand it's theory of operation as much as possible.

Hi,
I am the proud owner of an AVL 823. I don't have the RIV sensor though, but found your message whilst researching it, Mercedes part number 617 589 10 21 00

The part you mention correctly has a loop for an inductive spark pickup and could be used with any such strobe or engine tester, but the RIV probe I mention plugs directly into the AVL 823, the same socket as a clamp impulse detector KG-6 etc. for injector lines

I am currently trying to find a wiring diagram for the RIV, or somebody willing to give me the pinouts and short locations (how it determines which device is plugged in) from the cable plug.

I have got full data and circuit descriptions and diagrams of the AVL 823 diesel tester, but there's very little on the RIV sensor, which can be used dynamically as you say. I'm sure this device could be interfaced with a timing light without the rest of the boxes with a little imagination, it's probably just an inductive pick-up.
If you could use the manuals (.pdf) just let me know.