The Jetta Tdi spanks the Prius Hybrid - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

libbybapa · #76 05-11-2006, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A264172

You guys have probably seen this before... but for those that have not.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050607.004/mercedes/1.html

Very cool car and article. Thanks for posting it.

""AdBlue" is an aqueous urea solution which is sprayed into the exhaust system in precisely metered quantities, depending on the engine operating status. This converts the nitrogen oxides into harmless nitrogen and water."

That brings new meaning to "European Car" (You're a Peein' Car). Yuk, yuk, yuk.

Andrew

yellowbenz · #77 05-12-2006, 12:05 AM

Part of the problem with buying a vw is the size of their dealer network. I was shocked to hear that there are more Subaru than VW dealers. Add in the gremlins and other electrical issues and it becomes a deal breaker for many of us in the midwest.

Kevin
240D
190D

rwthomas1 · #78 05-12-2006, 09:40 AM

Toyota has won the advertising campaign and THAT is why the Prius (Pious) and hybrid technology is winning in sales. Its not that the hybrid is without merit, it is a fine idea that has a place and application for many US drivers. The hybrids have been hyped to death. All you hear is how great they are, how clean they are, they shoot bunnies out the tailpipe and whales want to kiss them, etc. etc.

The ugly parts of hybrids is Toyota will not reveal what it really costs to build them. I think Toyota is finally making money on them but the first few years were sold at a loss

The Prius has been repeatedly shown to get mileage figures lower than expected, sometimes much lower. The car was built to beat the EPA testing cycle, and has to be driven a certain way to return excellent economy. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with every ********* that owns one clogging up the left lane at 80mph! Thats not what they were intended for and that certainly explains why they don't get great real world mpg's for the "average" US driver.

We all know that a diesel is a better choice for sustained highway driving. The Europeans have figured out that diesel is the better choice and that is why hybrids aren't given a second glance over there. Our best chance of seeing plentiful Eurospec diesels over here is to lobby for changes in the EPA emissions limits to European standards. That would change everything.

South Park did what had to be the funniest show ever on Prius owners and the results and they were dead on, as usual.

RT

1983/300CD · #79 05-12-2006, 10:36 AM

But of course, in Europe every country is complaining about their upwind neighbor for killing their trees with their diesel soot. Last time I was in Germany, everyone was blaming France for their pollution. Lots of dead pine trees. That didn't affect the German driving habits or fuel consumption, though. Screw those downwind.

Why can't we all just go biodiesel already?

I know, I know...

rwthomas1 · #80 05-12-2006, 01:08 PM

The reality is that European diesel emissions standards are very strict and have been for quite a while. The Europeans were slow to adopt emissions standards but when they did they did it sensibly and set goals that were attainable. Their current emissions standards are only slightly less restrictive then the US however its that little tiny bit cleaner the EPA is asking for that causes all the trouble.

We, the US has over reacted to the emissions issue and legislated emissions standards into place that actually limit our choices in our efforts to reduce dependance on foreign oil. Having a selection of European diesels available for sale in every price category would open the eyes of the US buying public.

Europeans are dealing with the effects of years of pollution from not having emissions standards. These effects have nothing to do with the current crop of European diesels since combined with the USLD they are exceptionally clean.

RT

1983/300CD · #81 05-12-2006, 02:53 PM

This was a year or two before the EU consolidation. (I'm assuming that more than just money was standardized across boarders.)

I've only owned two VW's, and the last one I owned was a 1985, but I always liked the quality. Light, quick, durable, great steering, excellent on fuel. I'd hate to hear any of that has changed.

rwthomas1 · #82 05-12-2006, 03:50 PM

My take on TDI's: Love them! My wife has an '03 and I have several friends with them. I have yet to hear directly of a problem with them other than the odd minor complaint like headlight bulbs don't seem to last long. Maybe due to DRL use? Some people can't seem to stand them but they are usually comparing them to MB's or other higher end cars. Some obviously have got lemons but that happens with every brand. If someone gave me a Prius I would sell it to the first dimbulb that came up with the cash. Then I would purchase another used TDI! RT

Richard Eldridge · #83 05-12-2006, 04:18 PM

It costs more in energy to make than the amount of energy that ethanol can give. So in the future we learn to make it cheaper and faster and we make engines that run more efficient on ethanol than they do gas, diesel or electricity.

=============================================
Brazil has been using mostly ethanol refined from cane since the 1980's
Brazil is now nearly energy self sufficient.
This has been a big boon for Brazil. Check out the appreciation of the two Brazilian mutual funds (BZF and EWZ) for the past several years.

If it is true that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than there is in ethanol, then where has Brazil been getting the energy to produce all that ethanol?

This sounds like an awlman myth to me. Not true.

aklim · #84 05-12-2006, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1

The ugly parts of hybrids is Toyota will not reveal what it really costs to build them. I think Toyota is finally making money on them but the first few years were sold at a loss

The Prius has been repeatedly shown to get mileage figures lower than expected, sometimes much lower. The car was built to beat the EPA testing cycle, and has to be driven a certain way to return excellent economy. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with every ********* that owns one clogging up the left lane at 80mph! Thats not what they were intended for and that certainly explains why they don't get great real world mpg's for the "average" US driver.

We all know that a diesel is a better choice for sustained highway driving. The Europeans have figured out that diesel is the better choice and that is why hybrids aren't given a second glance over there. Our best chance of seeing plentiful Eurospec diesels over here is to lobby for changes in the EPA emissions limits to European standards. That would change everything.

Not a bad practice. They lose money, get you hooked and then you keep on with it. Just like drugs. Free the first few times, costs a little more one day and more and more till you are truely hooked and then full price. That is one way of doing business. I have no problems with it.

If you were to go speed limit, would you get the rated mileage? BTW, I would think it is very good in metro traffic where there is a lot of stop and go. I don't think they are good in cruising, are they?

Are people here receptive to diesels? I don't think they are. Diesels are known to be dirty and noisy. Look at the semi trucks. They blow tons of black stuff out in comparison to gas cars that have no visible exhaust. Ergo, the diesel is dirty and the gas car is clean, right? You and I know otherwise but try tell that to Joe Public. In any case, diesels or gas, they all have their advantages. I never had to hook up a heater to my cars that sat outside in the cold. I never had to worry too much about handling a fuel pump and the surrounding area of the pump that stinks of diesel. However, I know that I cannot expect the gasser to pull the weight I currently have. There is no free lunch. Diesels are not without merit but also not without their drawbacks.

aklim · #85 05-12-2006, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1

The reality is that European diesel emissions standards are very strict and have been for quite a while. The Europeans were slow to adopt emissions standards but when they did they did it sensibly and set goals that were attainable. Their current emissions standards are only slightly less restrictive then the US however its that little tiny bit cleaner the EPA is asking for that causes all the trouble.

We, the US has over reacted to the emissions issue and legislated emissions standards into place that actually limit our choices in our efforts to reduce dependance on foreign oil. Having a selection of European diesels available for sale in every price category would open the eyes of the US buying public.

You are talking about demininishing returns. That is true. However, as long as there are people who vote with their hearts and not their head, we will always have these issues.

What you are saying here is that "If you build it, they will buy." Maybe, maybe not. I haven't seen much love for the diesel engine. People will grouse about how they are having problems towing with their gas engine and yet when you try tell them to get a diesel, they look at you as tho you are mad. Partly, I understand. Because it is less liked here, it is harder to be liked. I have people that wonder why I bought a diesel excursion when the gas versions were more plentiful.

If I have the choice of only the Prius or the TDI, I would get the TDI. However, having the choice I have today, I wouldn't get either. I HATE any car that is FWD with a passion. Any FWD car I have to pay more than $100 for is too much for a car I would hate.

aklim · #86 05-12-2006, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Eldridge

It costs more in energy to make than the amount of energy that ethanol can give. So in the future we learn to make it cheaper and faster and we make engines that run more efficient on ethanol than they do gas, diesel or electricity.

Ethanol has less BTU than gas which has less BTU than diesel. So, unless you compare a modern engine made to run ethanol vs an old gas or diesel engine, aren't you going to come up short? IOW, the best gas engine you build vs the best diesel engine you can build vs the best ethanol engine you can build, cost be damned, isn't the best diesel going to beat the best gas and both beat ethanol?

rwthomas1 · #87 05-12-2006, 06:33 PM

Aklim,
I mainly have a problem with Toyota and what I consider deceptive marketing. "Dumping" products in the US has been done before and the Government has taken issue with japanese companies before. Now the Government is offering tax credits to hybrid buyers. The largest player here is Toyota, a foreign company that has refused to say what the cars really cost, how expensive the future maintenence will be, etc. and the profits just go offshore. A simpler way to help the US makers out would be to institute European emissions standards and let the domestic makers sell the diesels they make for the European market and elsewhere here at home! This would be quite simple. The vehicles already exist.

Do I believe that "If they build it, they will come?" Yes, absolutely. Look at hybrids. No one cared until they were hyped, then bang! they are the hottest thing around. US buyers love SUV's. Jeep Cherokees are available overseas with diesel engines that return better MPG's even if diesel fuel is more expensive. The pocketbook would direct the buyer to the diesel. You could have your cake and eat it too. So maybe not everyone is ready to buy a diesel. But every old MB owner, every TDI owner, every diesel pickup owner, anyone who has been to Europe and driven a diesel there, knows that diesel can have advantages. Imagine what would happen if we all had more choices than a) Jetta TDI b) Mercedes CDI c) Jeep CRD. I think there would be many more diesels on the road. The more the public sees, they more they accept, the more the realize how quiet, powerful, economical, etc. the modern diesel is.

I feel that diesel has been given the rawest deal possible. The EPA is against them, the tree huggers think they suck, the public is used to smokey trucks and the GM diesel debacle of the 70's/80's. I'm suprised diesel soldiers on at all. And thats the whole point. There must be something to the diesel if it simply won't die..... Just my 2cents, RT

aklim · #88 05-12-2006, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1

Aklim,
I mainly have a problem with Toyota and what I consider deceptive marketing. "Dumping" products in the US has been done before and the Government has taken issue with japanese companies before. Now the Government is offering tax credits to hybrid buyers. The largest player here is Toyota, a foreign company that has refused to say what the cars really cost, how expensive the future maintenence will be, etc. and the profits just go offshore. A simpler way to help the US makers out would be to institute European emissions standards and let the domestic makers sell the diesels they make for the European market and elsewhere here at home! This would be quite simple. The vehicles already exist.

Do I believe that "If they build it, they will come?" Yes, absolutely. Look at hybrids. No one cared until they were hyped, then bang! they are the hottest thing around. US buyers love SUV's. Jeep Cherokees are available overseas with diesel engines that return better MPG's even if diesel fuel is more expensive. The pocketbook would direct the buyer to the diesel. You could have your cake and eat it too. So maybe not everyone is ready to buy a diesel. But every old MB owner, every TDI owner, every diesel pickup owner, anyone who has been to Europe and driven a diesel there, knows that diesel can have advantages. Imagine what would happen if we all had more choices than a) Jetta TDI b) Mercedes CDI c) Jeep CRD. I think there would be many more diesels on the road. The more the public sees, they more they accept, the more the realize how quiet, powerful, economical, etc. the modern diesel is.

I feel that diesel has been given the rawest deal possible. The EPA is against them, the tree huggers think they suck, the public is used to smokey trucks and the GM diesel debacle of the 70's/80's. I'm suprised diesel soldiers on at all. And thats the whole point. There must be something to the diesel if it simply won't die..... Just my 2cents, RT

So you know I cheat. Up yours! What will you do about it? Shut me down if you dare and I will make you look like some person who doesn't care about the environment come voting time. Oh, BTW, I OWN some of your senators. See the problem there if you try punish them?

My wife is done with her skool about 80 miles away. So, today if my E300 were to be destroyed and I was looking for a new car, it would be a gasser. If we were to buy an equally equipped Excursion, the diesel would be about $5500 higher. That seems to be the trend for trucks anyways. So, depending on the application, a gasser might be better or worse. If the price were equal, either or, you bet I would go for the diesel without question. However, since they are not equal and add that to the fact that diesel is harder to get (seen more fuel stations that have gas only than both), and the fact that many of us live in cold places, the gasser is not without it's merits. Of course, as they say NILIF. Nothing In Life Is Free. Yes, you do get better mileage by say 20% but you will pay for it in other ways. So, it depends on what your goal is.

Diesel is a MUST for hauling. I don't see much that will change that. I didn't sell my gas Suburban for a diesel Excursion because I liked Ford better or I liked having to remember to hook up a power line to the truck when the temps dipped below 25. But since I intended to take my 8000# Toy Hauler up some high altitude places with my ATVs to go riding, a NA gas engine was not desirable. The EPA is against diesels because of the tree huggers. They are the most vocal and so the EPA is directed to placate them. The fact that the diesel has a bad rep just makes the job easier. Ironically, I got the Powerstroke Excursion because that is what I needed and not because it was cool, macho or green. To be macho or cool or green or a combination of all 3, I would have gotten the truck with a diesel and a station wagon. However, I calculated that the fuel savings wouldn't have paid for the increased cost, insurance and building a place to store it.

Diesel Giant · #89 05-12-2006, 09:16 PM

The main fact is that the Prius will not haul 5 fat people and their luggage around and get 45 mpg. Not to mention the stinking battery pack is about 5k to replace.

Richard Eldridge · #90 05-12-2006, 09:52 PM

Not a bad practice. They lose money, get you hooked and then you keep on with it. Just like drugs. Free the first few times, costs a little more one day and more and more till you are truely hooked and then full price. That is one way of doing business. I have no problems with it.

=========================================
This may be the way they sell cigarettes or breakfast cereal or razors, but hey, no way it's the way they sell cars.
You buy the car, and you are stuck with it for the next several years, because if you sell it, you are gonna get screwed when you sell it or buy the next one, probably both . It's not a gradual thing: you ownb it or you don't. Leasing is for people who can deduct the car for business and fools who don't know better. Women who buy purple cars every three years when the battery goes out. Statusnerds and dimwits.

I am somewhat leery of hybrids, but I'd trust Toyota to build as good a hybrid as possible, because I owned a Celica and drove it for 14 years an 200K miles and would still be driving ir if it hadn't rusted out so it rained on my feet. Best $2000 I ever spent (bought a 77 in 1981 and drove it until 1996. I recognize that Mercedes is a better designed car, but Toyota is far anmd away the better value, especially the ones they are making now. Toyota is #1 and Mercedes is way down the list in reliability and cost of ownership.

I'd rather DRIVE a Mercedes than a Toyota, though.
They are both about as easy to fix in my experience.