Hey Sam,

I am about 50 miles west of Stuttgart, where the stars are born.
Thank you for your support in translating .

(1) is just a description to show what I am talking about
(2) is the opposite of Barry’s post #158 (You are right there is no change in the amount of fuel injected. (for practical purposes) Just the individual cylinder timing changes on number three basically)
(3) yes
(4) … with the possibility of adapting a pump to an engine!
(5) … and there is no adaptation possible to the engine (the best is as it leaves the shop, he confirmed me very fine tolerances)
(6) Yes, element fuel quantity following temperature sensors in single cylinder exhausts (equal temperature is the goal, adjustable with individual element quantity). Our temp. sensor is the glow plug.
(7) …the shims’ thickness seems to give the timing

“I apologize for my bad jokes earlier !”

You pay the beer next time we meet and everything is o.k.

Greets Tom

Sam...Looking forward to the union tomorrow of your new meter and timing light...will be finally able to give a number to the mv method...still have not made my lines yet...my job keeps getting in the way of my Benz tinkering...Welcome to the new member..thanks for the compliments to our group of old crusty diesel heads.....Tom...I am glad to see you have a sense of humor and thanks for your input from the Bosch person...I see you also enjoy the challenge of exploring the fine tuning for the mental fun and exercise as you say....you are in the home of the Benz and the diesel engine for that matter...you are certainly close to the source of all things Diesel...kevin

Tomic, if that is accurate that it is just the fuel volume then it is a boost. Plus of course some of my thinking was in error. My thinking was based on a gentleman a long time ago now. He found when he loosened his injector line his overall rpm picked up. When he tightened his line fitting his rpm fell. Also he had a pronounced knock. After manipultion of the element both problems went away. I was under the impression he had an element very advanced by description and results. That indicated timing more than quantity of fuel. But still might have been fuel only from your description I guess. Also he did not get into the shims but just loosened the two nuts and moved it a little. Can you double check? Or anyone else know for certain. I really though that adjustment affected sequential timing. Rather than volume of fuel. Or there might be a limited interaction. Again if only fuel it might be considered a tune up item to some extent. It does seem to make some sense that vertical displacement with shims would change the opening pressure point and open the injector earlier or later. At this stage I just am no longer sure. In a way I hope I was wrong. It might make things easier. Tomoic, keep posting as everything learnt is important.

Barry,

Timing is obvious:
By changing the vertical position you change the opening of the internal bushing in relation to the piston (the piston is fix to the engine). Fuel displacement starts in the moment the piston covers the opening (see drop method for total IP setting).
Loosening the 2 13 mm nuts too much will free the shims and at first will have an influence to the timing. After tightening the nuts you go back to the shims distance and timing is back. Of course the mV will change with incorrect timing, I can confirm.
When I finished the quantity setting I tightened the nuts and my mV changed. So setting the quantity only with minimum loosened nuts to keep the vertical position.

I hope at least one person (Sam?) can understand what I try to write with my poor English.

Tom

Tom, your writting and english are good. If totally true it really is a boost. In some ways I am very conservative. Also I welcome any correction to my thinking. I know several people including myself follow yours. This is a many person group thing and now I have to wonder what else will be discovered. I wonder too if somewhere it is all ready done. Where is that information? I know one person had it all worked out pretty well totally. We should try to find him as a group. He was the guy that posted his efforts to some extent on another forum. I just hope his work is recorded somewhere. Or we might entice him to visit us. This area is too important to set aside. Thanks, Tom. Mobetta"s post # 120 on this thread should be examined by interested parties and an effort perhaps made to locate this guy. I sent him (crossbones) an email that came back as undeliverable. If we could locate him he might plunge in and share as it is obvious we have some of the same interests. I will ask others on the biodiesel site if they might be aware of his present location. Or even a method of contacting him if they know. Wonder if someone else might try to contact him and invite him over for some of his opinions? His last post was june 04/06 his email is jhudson1@nc.rr.com. I got an undeliverable message on my email to him. He could clarify so much.

I thought I would bring to your attention the following way of more easily looking at our POSTS... take a look at this page:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/152389-setting-pump-primary-timing-milli-volt-method-5-print.html?pp=40

You can access this VIEW by using the following drop-down menus:
"Thread Tools" /and then/ "Show Printable Version"...
and then in the top, right, corner of your screen select:
"Show 40 posts from this thread on one page"

Using this VIEW and a little imagination, one can easily make your own WordProcessing file of our entire THREAD on this "Primary IP Timing" subject!

However, there are a couple of things not good about this VIEW...
you will not see or be able to see any attached files... and you will have to refer to the POST by Date/Time. I am not yet sure what the time zone is used by the FORUM's computer. I will note after this POST and see what it is.

Slightly New Subject - I had already started searching for a good reference book on Bosch In-line Injection Pumps and now I will try again.

If anyone reading this POST knows of any such books, let us know what you know!

Sam

I found the following at:
http://www.dieselpage.com/art0898pf.htm
I particularly wanted to bring to your attention where it says:
"Electronics for in-line pumps - For in-line pumps Bosch offers system solutions in the form of electronic add-on modules or fully electronic controls. Idle control and driveability can be optimized with add-on modules. There are also solutions for future emission standards. The electronic start of injection control influences the mixture formation and combustion. Emissions of nitrogen oxides and unburned hydrocarbons are significantly reduced."

Tom - Do you think you can find out what this is talking about where it says... " add-on modules " ?
Danke,
Sam

Sam,
electronic add-on modules are options to make the system more comfortable i.e. the compensation of additional load by stabilizing the idle when turning on the AC or shifting into D while not moving.
The modular system seems to be a basic mechanical pump plus different electronic options.
Nothing interesting for our project in my opinion.

Tom

[ First let me say "Danke" to Tom for the information regarding Bosch's "add-on modules"... for in-line IP(s) ]

This will likely be my “Initial Report on K-M J-33300-A “ TACH-N-TIME ” Diesel Timing Meter. This will take more testing to build credibility with us old-time skeptics out here on the "Left Coast"!

Initially we have tried the meter on my 240D and 300D [ both 1980 models… neither with a “turbo” ].

The first try was on the 240D which is what I consider a new engine [good documentation] with only ~25,000 miles but has always run what I consider "rough" at idle and I believe is idled a bit fast. I failed to check the chain stretch timing mark when we did the valve adjustment not long ago but I don't think it will be a factor with only 25,000 miles on the engine.

I must say the first results were unacceptable because initially the meter did not give what I would consider a reliable tachometer reading, bouncing up and down. In general I feel the engine's rough, noisy, idle caused much of the problems with our first try. Although adjusting the piezo pulse sensor [which I think is made by the same manufacturer that makes “ Ferret’s ” sensor]… adjusting it was far better than with the Ferret but still uncertain… that is until I wrapped the fuel line with one layer of aluminum foil tape… and then it was far, far, easier to get a reliably smooth idle tach reading and trigger pulse for the timing light. Using the method described in the Kent-Moore manual the engine’s timing came out to read 5.8 Deg. BTDC.

Next came the smooth running 300D which we believe to have less than 90,000 miles on the road [but canNOT be certain of this]… and when we did the valves a couple of weeks back we checked and found no indication of chain stretch. This car is so smooth we did not have to put any tape on the fuel line… and its timing came out to be 6 Deg. BTDC.

I feel good that both of these came out so close to one another but concerned that 6 Deg. is far different from what Brian Carlton came up with when he and friend Peter did a direct comparison between this same meter [possibly the earlier model J-33300] and the MBC IP timing tool [R.I.V.?].
I think they come up with 13.5 Deg. for these same 616 and 617 engines.

That’s a big difference so we are not yet satisfied that our results is reliable yet... and will likely continuing testing other diesels [ we have two turbo 123W(s) with 617 engines that we can look at ]… and we might just break down and do “drip” or “well-up” tests on one or both of my two cars to see what we come up with the old fashioned way!

Stay tuned to see what we find! I'm even more anxious to try the mv method... particularly on the rough idling 240D!

Sam

Sam,
I am glad you got to try the tach&time, your readings are very retarded.Make sure that the ip has never been r&r'd, if not yout timming will have to be advanced to approx. 12.5- 13.5 degs

Peter

Sam...Had the mv peak method been done on these cars...curious to see what that would be compared to the meters readings...If you brought the timing up to the 13-14 btdc would hope that would be close to the mv peaks.....Thanks again for the loaner on the manual...modulator and filter kit on the way also....found my other set of lines for the test set up..... kevin

thus my dilemma over the results of our “Tach-N-Time” meter tests here on the "Left Coast". And I sense this with Kevin’s [“yellet”] last post. We all would like for the “ mv primary IP timing methodology ” to prove valid as a way to go beyond just using “ new-car setup specifications ”… we want to fine-tune our Grand Old chariots to accommodate their many years of service. Machines yes, but when put together, each has its own special needs too!

Specifically I would like:
(a) to be able to “dynamically” check the primary IP [engine-to-IP] timing - quickly, and ea$ily... AND
(b) if the timing is off significantly from “new-car specs” then definitely I want to investigate this condition further… and again, I think “dynamically” adjusting the IP’s timing is the better way because it's ea$ier and quicker.

To to accomplish (a) and (b) I have hope that I can make the “Tach-N-Time” meter work accurately and reliably. And together with a special set of fuel lines to relieve the "spring" problem, and a special lever tool attached to the IP's body, yes, I’m hopeful that the “mv timing” method proves to be valid and thus give us a quick way to “dynamically” check AND if necessary adjust the IP’s primary timing.

This is not unlike the medical doctors going in with an angiogram to checked for clogged arteries and if they find one, while they are in there they use the same cathetor to do the angioplasty... but in my case I was NOT a candidate for the "plasty"... and received the open heart double bypass !

Back to the subject of our THREAD... I have been collaborating OFF-FORUM with and receiving thoughts and advice from Brian Carlson and Peter [aka “DieselNut14”] and from this dialogue the best explanation as to why my tests [thus far at least] with the “Tach-N-Time meter did not give similar results as they obtained… my best explanation for now is that these meters can get out of calibration or possibly mine is simply defective and needs to be repaired or is unuseable. I will pose this very question to the Kent-Moore technical support people.
Regards,
Sam
P.S. - TomNik... I hope you see why I use such subtleties as replacing an "S" with a "$". It i$ my way of empha$izing that time i$ money when you are in bu$ne$$!

Hi Sam, you have been pretty busy. There might be a sensitivity adjustment in the amplifier that could do what you describe easily enough. It would just be responding a little early to the vibration intensity. It is just a trigger amplifier. Kevin may agree or may not. Basically what you are describing is that it has a delay. It is possible. Do not totally neglect the timing light either. They have had adjustable delays built in for years and it might be off. Or you might have two engines off. Anyways I would borrow another timing light before condeming the device or try to find a sensitivity adjustment if it exists. As long as it is consistant with the pizzo setup you can adjust your figures accordingly. You need a reciently drip or known well timed engine for comparisons in my opinion. Just some thoughts.

Sam,
just another 2cents worth, just hook up the tack&time and hook up your timing light and then read the timing at the crank without touching any buttons on the tach&time and that will show you your timing. The other method as the kent moore tool describes is also used and gives you tenths of a deg and digitally displayed. Hope this helps.

Peter

Sam,

Yes I can understand what you write. Give me a little time before you expect this level coming from my side. But I’ll keep working on it.

Individual quantity: Today I talked to THE specialist for our diesels in the Bosch service in town.

Barry: He confirmed that turning the elements changes the quantity, vertical position means timing.
Then I asked in general if it is possible to “balance” an engine with adapting the individual quantity. His first answer came straight: NO

Then I asked him about industry diesels and he confirmed that they are usually balanced by individual quantity! But only with the help of exhaust temp. sensors.
Thus for our engines impossible.
I pushed him in the corner (with words) and he stated that balancing our engines could be made in theory but we need the individual temperatures indicated somehow.
Then: me: What do you think will happen with a glowplug in your hand connected to a volt meter when you warm up the pin with a lighter?

He: nothing.

Me: Try!

He did not believe and was afraid to check under my eyes.
I finally asked again about the possibility of “balancing” our engines by individual quantity adaptation. His answer was: YES, with the help of a temp. monitoring device (the GL).
When I left the place, the guy was still very astonished and trying to understand. Confusion was written in his face.

He also confirmed that there is no chance to get the TIMING (of each element) more precise than during the setup on the bench and on top there is no need to modify or adapt for any reason.

Maybe this can be tested some day just for information by hooking up the light on one cylinder after the other flashing handmade marks on the pulley.

So far

Tom