Things slowley get better Tom. Thanks for double checking with the pump person. At this point I am glad I was wrong in some of my thoughts. Now much less chance of people doing damage when the need is really indicated. This information should have been known and used years ago. You power balanced your engine a little. Was it any better afterwards? Or was correction too little to notice? Your engine was in pretty good shape to start with other than one cylinder low by 2 bar. Did Idle smooth out a little? This might be useful with really older engines that have much different compression from cylinder to cylinder once injectors and valves not adjusted properly are taken care of. Plus using a set of calibrated glow plugs of course. The engines are not going to be smooth running with all kinds of different cylinder burn rates. If adding a little more fuel to a low cylinder gets it producing about the same power as the others the engine will preform better I think. Perhaps in the future a little yet though.

we two old fxxts [<-same in German!] quickly picked up on the two methods for reading the timing you talked about in your last POST... and so what I have evolved to use is to first use the K-M "Tach-N-Time" without any delay and do my best to read the timing direct from the dial readings on the crank wheel... and then I " Increase " meter's timing advance switch until the timing mark lines up with TDC on the crankshaft marks. And you are correct the latter does read to the nearest 1/10th a Degree.

Timing Tests on 2 More MBZs:

1985 300SD [W126- 617 turbo ] with ~200,000 miles, a car Karl has maintained for years. He just purchased it "Salvage" from the owner after it was caught in a creek flood [~$400] and he has been fixing the flood damage for ~3 months. The timing chain is most likely original but the engine runs beautifully. Our timing test results showed 10 Deg. BTDC using the "Tach-N-Time" meter

1986 300SDL [W126 3.0L 6cyl turbo] with ~250,000 miles and Karl will be recommending the timing chain be replaced without even lifting the valve cover... this due to miles, obvious poor maintenance, and "just the way it sounds" ! Our timing test showed 10 Deg. BTDC using the "Tach-N-Time" meter.

Preliminary Conclusion [I know this caption was an "Oxymoron" <- Oxymoron is the same in German!] - Regardless of what the outcome of calibration or repair is needed on the meter, I think we can clearly say that these old mechanically injected diesels end up out of timing more that our German designers would want to admit... you don't just set them at the factory and leave them alone... forever. I share Tomnik's inclination that the IP is not "sacrosanct" [not to be touched by us]. I think we should continue our pursuit of fine-tuning the primary IP timing and now with Tom's good news maybe even fine tune or "tweak" the fuel flow of each element using the mv method of monitoring the glow plugs.

All of the these engines should have the same IP timing except for any unique timing adjustments we might eventually learn to inject using the mv method. We have found: 5.8, 6.0, 10, and 10 Degrees BTDC on these engine that should essentiall be the same and if you throw in the ~10 Deg. correction factor that Brian & Peter found for the "Tach-N-Time" meter they had, these should have all shown up as ~14 Deg BTDC. So if we allow an additional correction factor to account for differences in the two meters, the range of 5.8 to 10 is 4.2 Degrees and I think we can agree that this is more than us perfectionist are willing to casually go along with!

I think before we start doing static "drip" or "well-up" allignment checks, I will try to find a local source for a MBZ " RIV " light allignment tool so we can find out for sure what the particular correction factor is our "Tach-N-Time" meter!
Chou... practicing for Italy this fall,
Sam

problems that were very funny, I find myself wanting to try and translate some of what "Tomnik" just tried to say so that I am certain that Barry does not miss out on antything. "

Tomnik" it was great the way you described your converstation with your IP specialist friend [was this at your local "pub"/ "bar"/ "beerHall" / "Stabnachtklub"] your writing was downright comical. But please try once again to explain what you meant by:

"He did not believe and was afraid to check under my eyes."
and this time include the same in German and I'll take a shot at helping with my translation too!
Sincere regards,
Sam

Good job Tom...!
We hope you do not get the Bosch people to start pulling out their hair or your hair...!....My Bosch guy here was uncertain too..until yesterday when he saw the mv readings on a mercedes at his shop....he also revved the engine up a bit and the mv readings climbed up as the temp. went up and then back down as he returned it to idle.....this Bosch guy is not confused...now he is curious and we will be checking some more to see how close this is....My friend here has been working on Bosch pumps since he was in high school...about 30 years of experience.....and is a registered Bosch repair center....keep on thinking Tom !........kevin

Sam...Did you get to advance one of your vehicles to see if it made any diff....You have me too curious now.... instead of working on the transmission tonight I shall drip test one or both of the old grumpy beasts tonight and post back.....I already have the timing marks cleaned and highlighted on the crank pully and indicator tab....I too am waiting to hear what is meant by (checking under my eyes)...he must mean....It is hard to deny that.... (what is before your eyes.... or... what is in front of your face) most probably...but it is still enjoyable to see the humor Tom can put forth...I warned in an earlier post that some of these old IP guys will be mumbling to themselves...twitching, and jumping off bridges before this is over......now off to time in this wretched heat & humidity......kevin

I took it as Tom's guy was not going to be embarased or prove his ignorance with Tom watching. Imagine your feeling if a guy off the street came in and mentioned something that appeared nobody in your field had ever mentioned before and you saw the logic of it. But the guy presenting the information basically knew nothing about your field that perhaps you had worked in for 20-40 years. Different people would react differently. Kevins guy had to see the milli volts rise for example with his own eyes. Kevin could not be right or he would have already known or heard of it perhaps. That in itself made it impossible initially. Now that he is a convert to some extent he might work out some useful values for example. He hopefully might see it as a time saving method on some of his work at some point. Or just natural curiosity. Wonder if one or both the pump guys will contact the pump manufacturer pretty soon to see if any information is available? But you are right it is funny.

Hello fellow diesel creatures...Did the drip check on the 240D...IP lever wired to full load position...Vacuum line to IP shutoff valve removed...#1 element spring and valve removed...IP drip tube installed with spout toward engine block....camshaft checked to make sure intake and exhaust lobes up so that crank coming up toward TDC on compression stroke...pumping hand fuel pump to insure flow from drip tube begining at about 35 to 40 BTDC....right at 22.5 to 23.5 degrees BTDC the fuel flow stops completely...hard to get the drip count... but easy enough to see the fuel stop....repeated many times always the same.....this should mean I am very close to the 24 BTDC.. I may be closer than I think because of low resolution of hash marks on pulleys...wish I had a degree wheel like the drag racers use..I have only set the IP timing on this car with the MV method...never with the drip tube...looks like I am just shy of drip tube spec with the mv method...BUT...I ran out of IP movement when I set it a few days ago because of spring pressure from the lines...there may be some more mv's to get...!...I am about to go bend the lines a bit toward advance to see if I can get more mvs with a little more pump movement after I put it back together .....then recheck drip method...this is very good news.......It was done with the engine cold.....If this is my mv peak...then it is safe on this one because it is just wee bit retarded of perfect..I remember Barry was concerned about too much advance..timing chain almost brand new...engine has about 300,000..I was told by previous owner.....kevin

While "Googling" for "RIVs" I found a lead about a really cheap, $25, RIV type of IP allignment tool... at least for the newer IPs! So as not to be accused of heresy, let me just say check out this WebLink's TREAD at a competing MBZ's Forum:
http://www.***************/forum/showthread.php?t=184
and check out the POST that has the photographs of the RIV and what they call a RIV Lock pin [ p/n – 601-589-05-21-00 ] that is sold by "Rusty" for ~$25.00. I just checked Rusty's WebSite and it responds with "Sorry, this product is temporarily unavailable... "

For something that I would hopefully only need very infrequently, this is my kind of price tag!
Sam

Yes, I determined that the Baum Tool Company makes two versions of their IP Locking Pin... one for old and the other for new Mercedes IPs... see the attached file for description/application/graphics! These should serve at the "Poor-Man's" tool I was looking for... maybe ~$25.00 if the local MBZ Dealer's Parts Counter has nothing or is not competitive with that.
Sam

Attached Files

RIV Research File-2.doc (27.5 KB, 216 views)

Kevin, my relief at what you experienced is tangiable. I also feel all other engines will respond simularily for some reason. In a way you have validated the proceedure for injection pump timing with the milli volt method on our older mercedes engines. Or if nothing else moved the possibility of real application ahead by a quantum leap. Yes I was initially very concerned with two much combustion temperature and too much cylinder pressure amoungst other things. Also reinforces my suspicion that perhaps as many as 50% of our old buggys out there are out of time. Also beats interpretation of the drip. Unless you are experienced with social diseases that is. Have put about 3500 miles on the old volkswagon after the milli volt retime. With no change other than the higher power and good fuel milage. Believe me I was watching and checking. Your experience last night was good stuff. High side of the peak indicated while still in it? Thanks again Kevin I can now breathe easier. Also looking forward to your posts to come as many others are with additional information. You have also made my day. Sorry also about the uncomforatable heat you have been working in.

o.k.- so i think i am about ready to try this out - i did check individual mv readings and got just shy of 11, no hunting. using a craftsman meter i picked up for $20 on sale.
84 300 td 272,000. smooth runner,good starter,, but dont know about cold starting(winter time).

sam- you are using a series of bannana plugs to tie all gp's together, correct? then hook meter up to this, on relay end of wiring? seems easy enough. I will try to get this done over the weekend, and of course report back here. IP to head allignment is already marked.

__________________
1984 123.193 372,xxx miles, room for Seven.

1999 Dodge Durango Cummins 4BTAA 47RE 5k lb 4x4 getting 25+mpgs, room for Seven.

Mobetta, probably all the plugs are linked up if you plug the glow harness back in. If so no bannana plugs are required. Just read from any plug using the head to ground your meter to. Watch out you never read the plug with the glow cycle activated. The voltage may damage your meter if not autoranging type. Let us know.

Thanks Barry...I have been on the road every day this week so my results are coming in slow....after I get back from North Mississippi tonight I will repeak my 240D advance test and then back to the 300D...The heat is not too bad after the sun goes down but then the mosquitoes line up for supper.....the old dog 300D has enough timing chain slack so that it drags along the road under the engine....will be interested to see how this one times out comparing the two methods.....also got some injector lines bent to build the dynamic test set up........kevin

Mobetta - Yes, I used banana plugs plugged into the glow plug harness plug... this makes me feel better because I'm certain they are isolated from any sources of too high a voltages or fluctuations that might cause the meter to float/drift. You can use this hyperlink to find Radio Shack's selection:
http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=banana&origkw=banana
I found that the most expensive $8.32/pair are most adjustible and thus easier to use for this test [ up to 5 could be needed! ] ... I think the high price of these is merely because they are also best suited for hooking up audio speakers that popular with the younger set ["boom-boom" in the trunks of their cars]!

Kevin - I can definitely characterize you as "No sooner said that done" kind of guy! We are all waited with baited breath to hear how your "dynamic" fuel lines work out and where you estimate your timing ends up being best.

R.I.V. Locking Pins - "Rusty" has the $26 lock-pin which I can only guess is the one from MBZ. I expect him to follow-up and clarify later as to what he has on the application for this tool... and one of our Forum's sponsors [ I canNOT remember which... it's " Paul "]... he will soon have both of the Baum tools for ~$46 each.

Sam

This is the tally of how many posts the participants in this THREAD have made!

User Name... # of Posts
barry123400 59
Samuel M. Ross 53
yellit 27
tomnik 11
coldwar 10
JMan300sd 8
mobetta 3
boneheaddoctor 3
Brian Carlton 3
jbaj007 2
Old300D 2
dieselnut14 2
BobK 2
phidauex 1
Matt L 1
Pete Burton 1
Mitch H 1
slowmike 1
tjohn 1
snakesausage 1
Whiskeydan 1
vstech 1