How do you test air suck? What is the most likely candidate?

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1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

GRRRRR!

Anyone want to buy a nice looking W124 300D? I feel like I spend all this time reading, and trying to figure out what to do next, and then I spend Saturday after Saturday and lots of money, only to get nowhere. I'm ready to through a granade under the car. I guess this is all "learning curve" as a newb to diesel land, but man it is frustrating.

So today, I took out all the new injectors, and put the ones that came with the car back in. No difference, still a rough idle, and a bunch of loud injector nailing.

I then took all the Injector pump valves back out, and inspected them one at a time. I made sure that all the small orifices were open and I cleaned everything off with fresh clean diesel. Everything looked alright as far as I can tell. Spend another 7 hours of a perfectly good Saturday with no results. If I waste too many more of these Saturdays the car is gonna have to go. I want a nice, reliable, economic diesel driver, not a restoration project... I in Tehachapi between Bakersfield and the Antelope valley, so if any wants a 1990 300D let me know!

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1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

1.R+R (ed) "Remove and Replace"

2.Delivery Valves

Below is a Pictogram of a Delivery Valve (That lives inside your Injection Pump)
[Your Injection Pump has 5 of them]

The parts labeled "K" and "G" have an established relationship to each other...
(In other words ,If you took them out of the Delivery Valve Holder and rotated
EITHER one in it's relationship to the other...you will have "Rumpity Bumpity"
at idle as a result.THEY MUST BE replaced in EXACTLY the same alignment
to each other as you found them!)

Also part "G" has the same sort of relationship to the Delivery Valve Holder that it "Sits" in.
(There is also a "slot and lever" arrangement that MUST be fitted Exactly)

SO ,Both of those parts MUST be in exactly the same position as you found them.

7h (Rubber O-Ring) AND 7f (Copper Sealing Ring) [AND 7i ,If you listen to the
Factory Service Manual ] should be replaced WITHOUT disturbing "K" + "G".

The Copper Sealing Washer 7f is a "One Time Use Only". "Torquing Down" the
"7" (Pressure Valve Holder) Distorts the washer and it will not seal properly
again.[This MAY be the source of your problem]

The FSM does not go into these details.

Assuming "G" 's relationship to the Fuel Rack inside the Injection Pump has
not been altered...The other components MAY reestablish their "Lapped"
relationship over time.

EDIT: side note...I would not touch anything that can leave residue
(either chemical ,cloth fibers , or "OTHER") to the internal parts of the
Injection Pump.

Attached Thumbnails

 

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'84 300SD sold
124.128

OM606 engine (W210 E300D/TD) delivery valve seals

Excellent write up and Super Pictures.

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'84 300SD sold
124.128

Testing for air suck...
One quick way to check this, look at your clear fuel filter, how big is the bubble? I recently had problems like you describe after some fuel system tinkering (injectors etc., but not DV) If you have much more than a small bubble, you are leaking air. I realized mine was over half full of air. I was at about 1/4 tank at the time. I filled up and cracked the line loose downstream of the filter. The filter filled up with fuel, and stayed full, and the car straightened right up. I will be changing my tank screen when I run low on fuel again. I am also in the SW (Northern AZ) I replaced all of my rubber lines first thing. They were hard as a rock and brittle. One could easily be cracked, or not making a good seal to a hard line. It sounds like you may have already taken care of that. Also, did you change your filters AFTER your purge, if so, fine, if not...I'd try it.
Best of Luck,
JDC

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1990 124,128 602,962

Beware the hobby that eats.
Benjamin Franklin

Could be the air issue, although it's not super likely. Check the O-ring on the fuel heater thermostat (round widget below the pump with 4 fuel hose fittings), that's a common leak. Usually it leaks fuel as a warning sign. It's also possible you hosed up one of the delivery valves while replacing the O-rings. Might be worth loosening them up and re-torqueing with the factory 3-stage procedure, which is 30Nm, release, 30Nm, release, final torque 35Nm. Again, a long shot, but worth a try.

Engine mounts are also a likely candidate for a "rough" engine idle. You can measure them and see if they need replacement, click here, skip to page 3 and 4. New Boge mounts are ~$100/pair.

This engine is also known for defective timing chains installed from the factory. You must check the chain stretch, and if it's past the 4° limit, I'd highly recommend chain replacement. Click here to read the factory TSB, which shows how to check chain stretch. A worn chain will also retard pump timing, so check that too, but if you're gonna replace the chain... that will advance pump timing. So you need to check pump timing before & after, and make sure it's in spec.

My 300D 2.5T smoked & was slow when I first bought it, but after a new chain & adjusting IP timing, it gradually returned to normal. And that's with old, stock injectors. I hate to say it, but unless the injectors were REALLY bad, or damaged... new ones rarely make a big difference. I still haven't replaced mine. They pop tested ok, not great, just ok.

Don't forget the replace the injector heat shields when R&R'ing injectors... see photo below for the reason why:





Best regards,

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Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!

I'm screwed...

Double Screwed

Yup need to fix that one too...

So here is what I did, I bought this kit from **************.com (before I knew of or found this site)
O-ring kite with insructions

Unfortunately, it does mention in the instruction to "note the orientation" of the valve" before it is removed, but I thought as I read it that they were talking about the holding plates on the valve body and had no idea that the internal piston was what was being discussed.

Also in the instuctions of the kit, it doesn't go into detail at all about the tourqueing process. So the second time I have pulled the DV valves (yesterday) I reused washers that were never set right in the first place.

So here I am now. I've probably spent 4+ hours reading all sorts of things on this forum and site, but I don't know what to do next, knowing that I have upset the relative positions of the internal valve piston and seat.

I only removed one DV at a time, so I know that the pistions and part 7g weren't intermixed, but I have no clue on their rotational indexing.

I guess my next attempt is to buy a set of new copper orings, and injector heat shields, open up the DV and see if I can guess the lapped positions by close inspection (probably imposible) reseat the used older injectors, send out the new ones to be pop tested, and then reinstall the new ones after pop testing with new Copper and heat shields.
The car runs SOOO bad right now, I think I will trash something else if I ran it much like it is. After yesterdays failed attempt it runs even worse, so each time I attempt to fix the beast she gets more upset. To make matters worse, while I was test driving after hooking everything back up, the chair adjust botton on the inside of the door broke, probably out of spite because she is being abused so much. The older injectors are really nailing too.

Is the DV try even worth it if I don't know the orientation? If this doesn't work, does that mean injector pump replacement?

The mercedes source says nothing about the torque process for the reinstall, so I'm really frustrated about that.

For pop testing the injectors, about how much (average guess is fine) does that cost o have a set done? Is it worth it to buy this kit for $300? I mean if inectors last as long as everyone tells me they do, then I probably won't be re-popping any inejctors anytime soon so $300 doesn't really sound a like a practical tool purchase?
Injector pop test kit with shims

Is there any way to reset the DV internals by relapping, or is that way beyond the scope of most average DIY folk?

Dipping the parts in clean diesel before reinstalling them good enough? I got to beleive the SVO guys are putting alot of suspended flour and other crap through their injection pumps reguardless of how good their filters are, and they keep running... and from what I've heard and read, even standard diesel isn't as clean or pure as most people would think, so I would be suspisous about thinking that touching the inards with clean hands would foul them permanantly. Any other thoughts of what to do next as I order up yet another batch of parts?

P.S. for others who may benefit from my mistakes in the futre, here are a bunch of good resources for DV fixes, methods and resources:

Mercedes Source Oring Kit

Mercedes Source Injector pop test kit

Manual page for Replaceing Delivery Valve

Good peachparts thread about nailing injectors and the first place I realized I was screwed!
This quote came from the above post and describes my conditions exactly:


Online manual that is much easier to use then those crappy CD set I bought off of EBay (waste of $25)

Leaking Delivery Valve DIY article on this website!! Oh had I found this site sooner....GRRR

Crush Washer Thread

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1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

P.S. where is eveyrone's favorite place to buy MB parts? I couldn't find the DV copper washers on this site's shop, and shopping suggestions to make sure I get the right parts as the navigation is tedious and painful

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1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

Searched for "Sean C Watts" couldn't find him on the user list... do you know his user name?

Read it last night, can't wait to do this, just need to get the freakin beast running smoothly first GRRR

__________________
1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

It's actually "C Sean Watts". Dyslexics have more nuf. ;-)

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~Michael S.~
Past cars:

1986 300SDL
1987 300SDL
1982 240D
1982 300SD


Current:

1987 300SDL

I think I'll do this as soon as I get what I think the DV issue is resolved. Right now, I'm betting that the copper washers are the culprit with not having seated them the first time, and then reusing them again when trying to trouble shoot on Saturday.

Agian, anyone know the best place to buy the copper washers? I couldn't find them on fastlane under the fuel injection section.

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1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

The copper seals are in the "Diesel Injection" section, then click on "pressure valve seals" (another name for the Delivery valves). $0.62 each.

Also, GSXR mentioned the timing chain. These 2.5's had a recall on the chain as they are prone to stretch. Mine was 14 degrees off but somehow hung together until I replaced it. Would probably be prudent to check yours as it will definitely affect idle and power!

Good luck!
Klaus

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‘84 300TD “Mountain Goat”
'62 300d Adenauer-350 Chevy - "Max"
'15 VW Passat TDI
'16 Dodge Ram 3500 - Cummins w/6-speed
'68 Mustang fastback
'55 T-bird
‘63 Studebaker Hawk

Where is FI, he has all kinds of things to say about Mercedes Source....

I think scam artist sums it all up.

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http://superturbodiesel.com/images/sig.04.10.jpg
1995 E420 Schwarz
1995 E300 Weiss
#1987 300D Sturmmachine
#1991 300D Nearly Perfect
#1994 E320 Cabriolet
#1995 E320 Touring
#1985 300D Sedan
OBK #42

Well, in general I'd recommend the "Buy Parts" link at the top of the forum page. They're good guys, and it's nice to support the forum (and IMO, this is one of the better MB forums out there). Rusty Cullens is another good source, as is Randy Steele. If you are a serious DIY type, I'd highly recommend obtaining the EPC (Electronic Parts Catalog) that the dealership uses... then you can look up your own factory part numbers. Some items are only available via the dealer, but most vendors can still get these items for you. Looking up your own part numbers eliminates a lot of errors, assuming you can learn how to use the EPC properly (it takes a while to discover the subtleties... I've been using it for 7-8 years now).

On a related note, there are a couple of MB parts places that I do NOT like... first and foremost is Adsit Co., they are terrible - no matter how cheap their price may be, do not do business with them. The gory details are in a separate thread on this forum. Mercedes Source is not exactly one of my favorites either, the fellow seems to be reputable and all, but his prices are pretty steep. I know he includes really nice instructions, but sheesh... that $70 delivery valve kit is a good example. Fifteen bucks (tops) in parts, so the other $55 is for the instructions? Ouch! Can't fault the guy for trying to make a buck though. If the instructions left out the 3-stage torque procedure, and the note about not disturbing the internal parts... that would make me question the completeness of teh instructions for his other kits as well.


Disclaimer: I have a wholesale account with a dealership, and buy 90% of my parts through them... the other 10% is from aftermarket vendors (only if there is a significant price differential).

That might be a little severe, but I understand what you mean...