Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-28-2010, 03:36 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Rear subframe removal and bushing replacement

Dear All,

I thought I'd add some photographs of my most recent fun - Sub-frame removal and bushing replacement on my 1981 W123 300D.

If you are searching this forum BEFORE starting the job then the I'd say you are better off trying to remove the bushings by using the car's weight to push the bushings out of the sub frame.

However, if (like me) you've either

1) Already removed the sub frame and are now thinking "right how do I get the bushings out"...

or

2) The center pin in the bushing has corroded itself on to the pin-like bolt and has ripped itself out of the bushing

Then this information might be of use to you.

I'll start first with a picture of the pin-like bolt removal:-



When I tried to get the pin-like bolt out it was very very stiff. I used a 3/4" drive bar and put loads of weight behind it. This was probably a mistake - although as you can see the pin-like bolt is corroded fast to the middle part of the bushing (this is the powdery conical thing) - so may be a stupid amount of force was necessary...

...Anyway I found out that the amount of force necessary (in removing this pin-like bolt) is drastically reduced if you take the weight off of the sub frame by lifting the trailing arm with a jack - you can see this too in the picture. I'm definitely going to do this if I ever have to do the job again.
Attached Thumbnails
Rear subframe removal and bushing replacement-user59552_pic2264_1272481797.jpg  

Last edited by whunter; 08-01-2010 at 12:34 PM. Reason: attached picture
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-28-2010, 03:43 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Next step

Before I actually removed the sub frame I had already disconnected the calipers and removed the axles. I couldn't get enough access for removing the differential - well I didn't fancy scraping knuckles on the underside of the car to reach the four bolts that are attached to the sub frame so I finally managed to get the prop shaft out and pulled the diff and sub frame out together from under the car.

After easily removing the diff - and taking off the trailing arms I was able to fling the sub frame about with the greatest of ease for the next bit - bushing removal

Here is a picture of an attempt at removing the bushing by hammering it out with a bit punch



As you can see it didn't work. The rubber in the bushings was not strong enough to take the punishment. So I turned the sub frame over so that it was upside down from the position that it is fitted on the car.
Attached Thumbnails
Rear subframe removal and bushing replacement-user59552_pic2265_1272481797.jpg  

Last edited by whunter; 08-01-2010 at 12:35 PM. Reason: attached picture
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-28-2010, 03:50 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Easy does it!

Levering under the lip of the bushing at its surface mounting point with a screw driver might work if the bushings are not rusted... but for me they were pretty stuck fast.

I used bolt cutters to snip the sides of the metal casing in the bushing and simultaneously trying to lever them out.



A sort of snip and twist motion got me enough space between the lip of the bushing and the sub-frame to get in screwdrivers and eventually a claw hammer.



With a claw hammer in place I could pull the bushing out just that little bit further to fit in the thicker claw of my crow bar.



The bushing popped out. Nice and easy eh?

Has anyone got a better way of doing this?
Attached Thumbnails
Rear subframe removal and bushing replacement-user59552_pic2266_1272481797.jpg   Rear subframe removal and bushing replacement-user59552_pic2267_1272481942.jpg   Rear subframe removal and bushing replacement-user59552_pic2268_1272481942.jpg  

Last edited by whunter; 08-01-2010 at 12:37 PM. Reason: attached pictures
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-07-2010, 03:02 AM
Sev's Avatar
Sev Sev is offline
Infractions: 99/99 (999)
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Army View Post
The bushing popped out. Nice and easy eh?

Has anyone got a better way of doing this?
yes, i do. after jacking up the car, put a tall bottle jack directly under the subframe mount, loosen the subframe, and then lower the car onto it. bottle jack puts pressure on the mount and pops it out. i used this method on my 190e and it works great. to install the subframe bushing i pop the new bushing in the freezer overnight so it compresses. makes installation (along with grease) much easier
__________________
i know Jim Smith. i don't actually know him, but I know of him
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/6201/RQ1H6A.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-07-2010, 03:52 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Thanks for the tip

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sev View Post
yes, i do. after jacking up the car, put a tall bottle jack directly under the subframe mount, loosen the subframe, and then lower the car onto it. bottle jack puts pressure on the mount and pops it out. i used this method on my 190e and it works great. to install the subframe bushing i pop the new bushing in the freezer overnight so it compresses. makes installation (along with grease) much easier
Thanks Sev that seems to be a better plan unless of course the bushing is well and truly stuck in there. As for using grease to help slide in a new bushing I think you're better off using some sort of water based lubricant instead of oil based stuff for rubber components.
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-09-2010, 11:41 PM
dieseldan44's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,042
Army,

Did you replace the front differential pinion seal? That's the last element of this job that I don't have a game plan for.

Mine weeps ever ever so slightly. I dont think I've actually lost any fluid from the diff, its just a little oily.

I'll have the diff on a bench, so now would be the time to do this.

dd
__________________
-------------------------------
'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-28-2010, 03:51 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
I'll post some pictures of the finished product when the parts get here...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-29-2010, 03:22 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out in the Boonies of Hot, Dry, Dusty, Windy Nevada
Posts: 9,680
Isn`t that the most fun you ever had?

I just finished up doing this same project last week. I droped the whole assembly down and out. I removed the differential and the axles first. I have the Annular axles, so didn`t have to remove the diff cover. I did this to remove some of the weight first.

I used a small pry bar and worked around the sub bushing and they came right out. I didn`t have any rust issues, and the sub frame bolts came right out. the FSM shows to pry them out. but what ever works.

I made a bushing press out of some steel I had, cut and welded it. drilled a 5/8 hole in the center for a piece of all thread. a cross plate on the back side of the frame, with a 5/8 hole also. then uses Syl-Glide on the bushing and the inner hole in the frame. then cranked down on the nuts, and she went right in. I tried the KY-Jelly, and the bushing wouldn`t seat all the way in. removed it and used the Syl-glide, and went all the way in.

I made a bushing press similar to the one Whiskydan made.
www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=266324 I had trouble with using the washer he uses to push the bushing out. I replaced it with a large nut they use on Gard Rails. it pushed them right out. the washer just wanted to bend.

I also painted the arms and sub frame.

when I replaced the assembly, I installed the Diff , then used 3 floor jacks. one under each arm, and one under the Diff. then just rolled it under the car and raised it.
Note: Make sure the Differential mount isn`t on backwards.

I put 2 bolts in the diff mount, but the sub frame bolts were off. finally removed the diff bolts, screwed in the sub frame bolts. then the diff mount was off. then the light finally came on, DUHHHHHH
Amazing how easy things go together when things are facing the right way.

with the new bushing and diff mount, it is a different car.

Charlie
__________________
there were three HP ratings on the OM616...

1) Not much power
2) Even less power
3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto

Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast.

80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff

We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-29-2010, 04:12 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
It is good fun - honest - everyone should do it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by charmalu View Post
Isn`t that the most fun you ever had?
I can honestly report that it was indeed fun - I find it very satisfying to see a big change in the car for the time you put into it - I think there is nothing worse than doing electrics:- hardly any change when you've finished.

The link for whiskydan's home made tool is indeed a good one. I'm planning on posting some more pictures of that and my trailing arm bushings in another thread.

I'll take your advice for installing the new subframe bushings - thanks. Only I can't get slyglide over here. I have found an alternative made by Kroon oil (for those of you in Europe who might be reading this)... Kroon oil make a water based / food industry Silicone grease called "Silicon Compound".
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-29-2010, 06:48 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out in the Boonies of Hot, Dry, Dusty, Windy Nevada
Posts: 9,680
Syl-Glide

I believe Syl-Glide is the lubricant recomended to use for the sun roof. close to what is the official MB stuff.

When I used the KY, the bushing didn`t seat all the way, had 1/4 inch gap.
used the Syl-Glide, and it went in with less effort. I coated the bushing and the hole.

Charlie
__________________
there were three HP ratings on the OM616...

1) Not much power
2) Even less power
3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto

Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast.

80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff

We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-29-2010, 05:36 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 352
Good job man. When I did these three weekends ago it was pretty easy. Nothing like the pain you had to go through. I used the car's weight to push the bushings out of the subframe and that was that. I couldn't imagine taking the subframe out of the car to do this job.

But your right, the car did handle a lot better with the subframe bushings in, and the differential mount replaced.
__________________
Professional greasecar installer
Austin TX


98 Jetta TDI with grease car kit + veg-therm (totaled)
87 MB 300SDL running on B99 / greasecar kit + 30 fphe
www.austingreaseguys.com
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-05-2010, 08:21 AM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Thanks for the torque specs - I did need them.

Some how or other I had convinced myself that the left hand steel plate fits on the right hand side but that they go on upside down... doh! I received some information that showed me the errors of my ways - thanks a lot Yak.

(I should have looked more closely at my own photographs that I took when I took tha bits apart)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-01-2010, 11:45 AM
dieseldan44's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,042
Army,

Truly impressive job.

I am inspired to remove the whole subframe now to de-rust and rust proof the whole thing with POR-15.

How long would you say this whole project took you?

I did the '85s front end and now would love to do this complete of a job on the rear. I fear this a long long project....Or it may be one of those things that doing the entire thing is not that much harder than doing it one bit at a time under the car.

How long did it take you to re-align the subframe?

dd
__________________
-------------------------------
'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-01-2010, 04:10 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieseldan44 View Post
Army,

Truly impressive job.

I am inspired to remove the whole subframe now to de-rust and rust proof the whole thing with POR-15.

How long would you say this whole project took you?

I did the '85s front end and now would love to do this complete of a job on the rear. I fear this a long long project....Or it may be one of those things that doing the entire thing is not that much harder than doing it one bit at a time under the car.

How long did it take you to re-align the subframe?

dd
I really took my time doing the subframe as well as the front suspension, power steering pump rebuild, new brake lines + rebuilt the calipers (one of which has failed - the bugger), cleaned out and removed the fuel tank, new fuel lines all the way to the injectors + new injectors, fitted an electric cooling fan, and I've been slowly stripping off that horrible plastic undercoating and assessing the condition of the chassis. So it is a bit difficult to give you an accurate assessment.

HOWEVER if I'm being positive and nothing goes wrong I'd say it is possible in a weekend so long as you've got the parts. If you need to go shopping you've probably blown it!

The surprising thing about the subframe job is just how light it is - remove the diff and it is quite easy to fling it about like Mr Schwarzenegger might do his car mechanics. The only real problem is getting it out from under the car - which for my case was only on axle stands. I found it best to lower the subframe and diff onto chunky bits of wood and bricks until I could drag it sideways out from under the car. I positioned the axle stands under the rear jacking points to start off with but found it better to have them positioned behind the rear wheels on the "chassis rail" close to the bracket for the joint between the flexible brake line and the hard one.

Once you've got the subframe out and you've cleaned it up and painted it get some cavity wax for the inside - there is access via a little rubber bung in the middle upper surface of the subframe.

Don't be too upset about scratching your new paint - it is quite likely to happen. (I'm sorry to report) I spent some time with more POR 15 underneath the car once it was re-assembled.

Fitting the subframe on to the car is best done with the diff on. I tried to fit the diff to the subframe once it was in place but when working under a car on axle stands - well shall I say a waste of time? My method of re-aligning the subframe was to raise it slowly on to more bricks and wood until I got the height right:-

Charmalu says to use 3 jacks. I guess this is best - I've only got one jack - so I used what was to hand. Be careful with such methods - jacks are likely to be way way safer.

Even so once you've got the subframe at the correct height you'll find it possible to lift the two front points (that have the bushings) by hand. The bullet like pins are sometimes a bit stubborn at this point - tap them into place with a hammer - and I mean tap NOT hammer! Once you've got one of these pins in place you can do them up hand tight and then do the other one.
Watch the height of the diff and make sure that is in line with the mounting holes - if it is nearly there it helps with the pin alignment.

I hope this helps and isn't another case of too much information...
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-01-2010, 04:13 PM
Stretch's Avatar
...like a shield of steel
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
Posts: 14,461
Oh yes and for checking the alignment of the subframe and indeed the front wheels I'm in the middle of perfecting a time involved but accurate DIY way of setting up the suspension... once I get the data I want I'll publish...
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page