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  #16  
Old 03-05-2012, 06:07 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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Location: Lafayette Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
guess I said something wrong?

Found out the info on the intakes that I see everyone talking about... I'll ink it here for future reference!

OM617 Turbo intake


It also seems that the stock Ip is good for about 140-150hp & around 200ftlbs..its pretty maxed out from the factory. So a A/A intercooler and meth would do it good, and give me some room if needed for more power.
I'd stay away from the Meth.....its really bad for your teeth!

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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  #17  
Old 03-05-2012, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
I'd stay away from the Meth.....its really bad for your teeth!

Hehe, I had 1 evo8 in my younger years after I graduated from hondas..and we used to spray rubbing alcohol honestly. Dollar store, grab a few bottles, fill washer resivior and we sprayed that..cheap and effective. Thinking I can get away with the same here if I really needed more fuel..
I am doing the swap though, and its already been set in motion. A buddies friend popped his 4.0 a few days back, and juts picked up one of mine last night around 12am. $500 dollars richer, going hunting for a Om617A today. I have 2 more spare 4.0's, plus my rebuild parts, plus the motor that will be coming out of my jeep to sell..so all in all, I could essentially brake even after the swap which would be sweet!
Anywho, you guys ever do compression tests on cars in the junkyards? We have 150 dollar wheel barrel days, if it fits in a wheel barrel and you get it up the hill, its your for 150...they don't care if you have 2 motors, so I'm thinking I pay a few buds, and we get 1 or 2 and I start this out right!

As far as mods, I have about 20 pieces, bends, straights ect. of 2.25" and 2.5" intercooler piping. I have a intercooler although it won't fit on my cherokee, so I'll need another. But ya was thinking, just rebuild & slightly port/clean up the head, deck it slightly for straightness which will raise the compression ratio slightly..not much but maybe enough to get 22:1. Stock is 21.5:1. I also have my old 3" exhuast/ downpipe off my evo, so I'll be cutting those up to make my downpipe/exhaust.
I'll look more into turbo and sizing, but the stock 60trim upgrade looks very easy, and the place that did a few people is only 2 hrs from me. 3" downpipe/exhaust, a A/A FMIC, possibly meth injection, and of course boost, EGT, oil temp and maybe EMP gauges? Is the last one really needed and how important is it?
I have EGT and AFR in my jeep right now, was alway taught to have the vasics and watch them like a hawk. So I already them. I'll look around for that Na W117 manifold that everyone loves so much, and also a non-egr turbo manifold..Honestly this stuff seems really easy after reading for a few days.

Crank Ip +1.5 turns, remove limiter and ALDA..yes I'm aware that I'll need to watch my boost/EGT gauges, but ever since I was 16 I was taught to watch my gauges like a hawk anyway.
Up the boost to around 10-12psi, or as much as possible once the IP is maxed, crank IP, remove ALDA, remove EGR, A/A FMIC, 3" exhaust, and keeping my cowl intake/cheater snorkel setup that I have currently. Its like ram air, although the turbo will do all the work..
Doesn't seem all that hard, and that should net me somewhere around 140/200ftlbs from what I've read correct? And that would be maxing out the IP pump.. Which is more than enough I'm sure..again I'm not going for balls out power, just a decent little bump, on par with a stock 4.0 performance and better mileage while doing it. As well as do all the maintenance, new GP's, filters, gaskets ect!
I will be rebuilding the head, and possibly replacing the timing chain, although I still need to research that, price and such! I also need to research what all the swap will entail...as far as modding/removing my fuel pump, replacing fuel lines and remote mounted filters and such if needed! Also will have to look into a ALT upgrade, or see about fitting my jeep alt onto the merc..I need around 140A for all my crap, lights & inverters for camping.


I also need to get a setup for bio-diesel after the swap is complete but I'll probably run it through a beer keg that I can mount in the cargo area of my jeep & run lines into the quarter panel and then down along the frame rails..I have a nitrous bottle heater and a few kegs and figured I could use the bottle heater to heat the keg up, vs heating the bio diesel another way....seem like an ok idea right?


And again thank everyone for being so welcoming and so helpful. I know it can get old answering the same questions for new guys 1 million times. Every seems in good spirits about it though and I'm extremely exciting to start this! I'm sure I'll have more questions eventually, but let me know if my thinking/reasoning is correct as far as performance and as far as the Bio setup.

Any good threads on rebuilding/balancing injectors on these things? I want to try and get everything done on the motor, and then swap it in. So new GP's and everything so that way I'll have no issues once I start the swap...make things easier for myself lol.

Last edited by ChrisH; 03-05-2012 at 10:39 AM.
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  #18  
Old 03-05-2012, 10:52 AM
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And whats a good solid cruising speed for these things? Do they like 2000rpm, 2500, 3k?

Right now with a 5speed, and 30x9.5's and 3.55's I'll be around 2200rpm at 70mph in 5th gear..Kind of disappointing because I won't get much use out of 5th gear.
So I'll try to find some 4cyl jeep axles and swap those in, I would love 4.56's so I can ran 31x10.5's and not loose to much, but I'll take 3.73 or 4.10 as it'll be better than what I have now..


For you jeep guys,
ax15, 30x9.5's, 3.55's - 70mph 2199rpm
ax15, 30x9.5's, 3.73's - 70mph 2310rpm
ax15, 30x9.5's, 4.10's - 70mph 2530rpm
ax15, 30x9.5's, 4.56's - 70mph 2820rpm

ax15, 31x10.5's, 4.56's - 70mph 2750rpm

Those are rough estimates as tires may measure out slightly more/slighty less, using this calculator here.
Gear Ratio Calculator

Last edited by ChrisH; 03-05-2012 at 11:05 AM.
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  #19  
Old 03-05-2012, 11:09 AM
Renntag's Avatar
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Danger, sarcasm ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
Hey guys, I joined here because I'm looking to learn more about the OM617, and diesels in general honestly! I know the basics..but I still have questions
Welcome and remember what obie wan said "Use the search, Luke"


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
..Like what are glow plugs?
Let me google that for you

This is my favourite:
Glowplug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
What do they do?
They "plug a hole" and they "glow". It's really that simple.
Should have been explained in link above.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
Why do you need to wait for them to be "ready" before running the motor
Does your toaster instantly spit out toast? Is your oven instantly HOT?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
...whats the glowplug afterburner?
Well you got me there.
With out doing a search (for you), I cant answer that question other than to say, it must burn something "after" something important happens, like internal combustion.

Try this:
Let me google that for you

Looks like you might be top of the list since this forum is "The bee's knees".



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
Stuff like that lol..I understand the basics,
That is helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
Ip instead of fuel pumps,
Ummm, how are you going to get the fuel from the tank to the injectors?
IP = Injection Pump. (the P word).


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
add fuel to cool EGT's and make more power
This seems way off base.
EGT's cant be "Cooled". Temps can be Lowered, raised, and even appear to be High or Low.
More fuel will never make more power with out the proper ratio of air.
The cycle of controlling exhaust temp begins at the compressor housing, not at fuel delivery. Fuel plays a part, but is not the key player.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
..basically it seems fuel is king for making power in the diesel world, without it, you just have alot of heat lol.
Tell that to people in the great white north. They'd love to have heat without fuel. All this hot air to control with fuel, its enough to make you crazy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
Honestly, I was recently looking at spending a bit over 3000USD to build my jeep 4.0 in my 1987 jeep cherokee.
Laugh with me here......you might be better off building a 4.0 Jeep in a garage, rather than in another jeep. Space constraint considerations to be made.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
..... but I'm here to learn about diesels and particularly the OM617!
Read all the threads in the DIY link that WHunter posted above. It should take about a month, reading full time, to digest all the info.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
So teach me guys, I'm still searching and reading myself but give me the basics first, then I'll get into the rest!
Well I just called all my clients and told them that I'd be busy looking up info for a new guy on the forum. What other things can I look up?


this posting was provide by 'tongue in cheek LLC', any and all info contained should be taken with a grain of salt and a large helping of "sense of humour" found in your local drug store. Any feelings of hurt should be ignored as these are sympathetic side effects of confusion.
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98 E300D *sold
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  #20  
Old 03-05-2012, 11:28 AM
toomany MBZ's Avatar
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The 82 to 85's are turbo units, the older ones are not.

For the turbo engines, the max horsepower is 4350 rpm, a whopping 123! You'll have to rig something up as gassers use a different system.

Bio diesel can simply be pumped in the tank, just swap out any rubber lines for viton.

Speeds are axle ratio dependent.
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  #21  
Old 03-05-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renntag View Post
Welcome and remember what obie wan said "Use the search, Luke"

Ya I've been searching my but off..and so far all seems to be very simple..nothing that I can't comprehend.



Let me google that for you

This is my favourite:
Glowplug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well you got me there.
With out doing a search (for you), I cant answer that question other than to say, it must burn something "after" something important happens, like internal combustion.

I did read the WIKI link, WIKI's got tones of usfull info, but it didn't give to much on the afterglow stuff. I read the afterglow mod on the om617 directly.. People modding them for "afterglow"..linked here.
W123/W116/W126 OM617 Afterglow mod

I just don't understand what the benefits of doing it are? I'd assume to help ignite fuel on cold conditions, even if the motors at running temp, to possibly have less smoke? The link says to improve cold idle quality..I guess I just wanted to know how and when would this be a befenfial mod..me living in the desert, I see maybe mid 30's in the dead of winter..and snow is a exciting thing for us because we never get it..



They "plug a hole" and they "glow". It's really that simple.
Should have been explained in link above.
Does your toaster instantly spit out toast? Is your oven instantly HOT?

Basically thats its, lol. Super simple and I should of googled it before I posted
Honestly I read that afterglow thread right before I made my post..should of searched first.






Try this:
Let me google that for you

Looks like you might be top of the list since this forum is "The bee's knees".


That is helpful.

Ya I've built motors, ported heads, tuned a few cars, done some machine work, but I leave that for the pros. I usually work alone, so I've learned to go over every detail before finishing/starting something, so theres no mistakes that aren't easily fixed.
Tuning these 617's seems to be as easy as watching a boost/EGT & EMP gauge, add fuel, add boost/air and adjust from there...I deffinetely wouldn't attempt something like this if I didn't feel I could do it!



Ummm, how are you going to get the fuel from the tank to the injectors?
IP = Injection Pump. (the P word).

I knew what IP meant lol..I meant that IP pumps are basically replacing the fuel pump right? Or is a fuel pump still needed to get fuel to the IP, then the IP pumps it into the motor? This is something I need to research more because I need to figure out what I will/won't need to change/convert on my current gasser fuel system.
I thought I could remove/mod my fuel pump to make a hanger for the fuel lines/float level and run new fuel lines to the engine..and the IP would take care of the rest?



This seems way off base.
EGT's cant be "Cooled". Temps can be Lowered, raised, and even appear to be High or Low.
More fuel will never make more power with out the proper ratio of air.
The cycle of controlling exhaust temp begins at the compressor housing, not at fuel delivery. Fuel plays a part, but is not the key player.

Ya I kind of fumbled that one..should have read, reread and then reworded and then posted that.
By cooled I meant lowered lol..I joined the cummins forum, those guy seems knowledgeable. And they say that dumping more fuel to cool/lower EGT's, although its not the best..again different motor/different senario though. They did also say bigger turbos move more air, and not have to work as hard, thus also giving lower EGT's. Same reason as going from a 3" to a 5" exhaust kind of..
Not sure if thats coming out right, but I do understand it in my head lol. Also the reason behind me wanting a A/A intercooler! To lower AIT, and lower EGT's



Tell that to people in the great white north. They'd love to have heat without fuel. All this hot air to control with fuel, its enough to make you crazy.

Laugh with me here......you might be better off building a 4.0 Jeep in a garage, rather than in another jeep. Space constraint considerations to be made.

Hehe I guess that would make it easier I was actually planning on driving the jeep..its in perfect running order..and rebuilding a spare 4.0..I had 3 sitting here. Then just drop and swap for minimal downtime.


Read all the threads in the DIY link that WHunter posted above. It should take about a month, reading full time, to digest all the info.

Been reading them since he posted last night. Great info!


Well I just called all my clients and told them that I'd be busy looking up info for a new guy on the forum. What other things can I look up?



this posting was provide by 'tongue in cheek LLC', any and all info contained should be taken with a grain of salt and a large helping of "sense of humour" found in your local drug store. Any feelings of hurt should be ignored as these are sympathetic side effects of confusion.

Awsome F*ing post man!

Last edited by ChrisH; 03-05-2012 at 01:05 PM.
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  #22  
Old 03-05-2012, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toomany MBZ View Post
The 82 to 85's are turbo units, the older ones are not.

For the turbo engines, the max horsepower is 4350 rpm, a whopping 123! You'll have to rig something up as gassers use a different system.

Bio diesel can simply be pumped in the tank, just swap out any rubber lines for viton.

Speeds are axle ratio dependent.

Ok so bio can be mixed/run with normal diesel? I will deffinetly run veg since most places will give you it lol..I may run oil/atf at some point, in small quantities but it would be at least a year so I've got plenty of time to search it out!
I thought this was frowned on and a external source of bio was best though? I can mod my 18 gallon fuel tank to hold around 25.5 gallons, which I plan to do anyway! It'd be much easier if I can run diesel and bio in the same tank! More room for camping gear.
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  #23  
Old 03-05-2012, 01:02 PM
toomany MBZ's Avatar
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A pump is necessary to get fuel to the IP, many refer to it as a lift pump, its located on the side of the IP, the primer pump screws into it.

The pic shows a new style primer pump attached.
Attached Thumbnails
Help me learn please.-screen-shot-2012-03-05-1.01.38-pm.jpg  
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  #24  
Old 03-05-2012, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toomany MBZ View Post
The 82 to 85's are turbo units, the older ones are not.
I believe that there were many non-turbos made from 82-85 that may have also had a manual trans, hand cranked window lifts, and manual climate contro unit. These are very rare in the US Market.



Quote:
Originally Posted by toomany MBZ View Post
Bio diesel can simply be pumped in the tank, just swap out any rubber lines for viton..
Viton is a great choice for new hoses, but is unnecessary. Standard rubber hoses (new replacement) are fine too. The viton wil provide a longer service life, but 8-10x longer? Not sure that the cost is worth it. I typically only use Viton hose for the hoses that require removal of many other parts to reach.
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  #25  
Old 03-05-2012, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toomany MBZ View Post
A pump is necessary to get fuel to the IP, many refer to it as a lift pump, its located on the side of the IP, the primer pump screws into it.

The pic shows a new style primer pump attached.
Ok, I'm looking at peoples swap threads currently to figure out what they did. When pulling a 617, is the LP attached to the IP? So I won't need to go hunting to get it?
I'm trying to find out if I'll need a LP, or if I can/should use my fuel pump to get the fuel up to the IP? Not much has been said in the swap threads, but I'm searching.

EDIT: I guess using the electrical pump I have now, could ruin the IP..by excess pressure I'd guess? So looking/searching for more options.
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  #26  
Old 03-05-2012, 01:16 PM
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I would like to Post on this one but it probably wouldn't be nice
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1983 Mercedes W123 240D 4 Speed 285,000 on the road with a 617 turbo, beautiful butter yellow, license plate # 83 240D INDIANA

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  #27  
Old 03-05-2012, 01:23 PM
Renntag's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
Ok, I'm looking at peoples swap threads currently to figure out what they did. When pulling a 617, is the LP attached to the IP? So I won't need to go hunting to get it?
I'm trying to find out if I'll need a LP, or if I can/should use my fuel pump to get the fuel up to the IP? Not much has been said in the swap threads, but I'm searching.

EDIT: I guess using the electrical pump I have now, could ruin the IP..by excess pressure I'd guess? So looking/searching for more options.
Seriously, rather than have us hold your hand, study the fuel system in the W123/126 and pay your dues to understand the OM617. This is in the realm of "the basics" you mentioned having a firm grasp of earlier.



Quote:
Originally Posted by junqueyardjim View Post
I would like to Post on this one but it probably wouldn't be nice
It looks like you ended up posting anyway.
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84 300SD Daily driver
85 300TD almost 400k miles and driven daily.
98 E300D *sold
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  #28  
Old 03-05-2012, 02:08 PM
whunter's Avatar
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 17,416
Oh you sick twisted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renntag View Post
Welcome and remember what obie wan said "Use the search, Luke"

Let me google that for you

This is my favourite:
Glowplug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They "plug a hole" and they "glow". It's really that simple.
Should have been explained in link above.

Does your toaster instantly spit out toast? Is your oven instantly HOT?

Well you got me there.
With out doing a search (for you), I cant answer that question other than to say, it must burn something "after" something important happens, like internal combustion.

Try this:
Let me google that for you

Looks like you might be top of the list since this forum is "The bee's knees".


That is helpful.

Ummm, how are you going to get the fuel from the tank to the injectors?
IP = Injection Pump. (the P word).

This seems way off base.
EGT's cant be "Cooled". Temps can be Lowered, raised, and even appear to be High or Low.
More fuel will never make more power with out the proper ratio of air.
The cycle of controlling exhaust temp begins at the compressor housing, not at fuel delivery. Fuel plays a part, but is not the key player.

Tell that to people in the great white north. They'd love to have heat without fuel. All this hot air to control with fuel, its enough to make you crazy.

Laugh with me here......you might be better off building a 4.0 Jeep in a garage, rather than in another jeep. Space constraint considerations to be made.

Read all the threads in the DIY link that WHunter posted above. It should take about a month, reading full time, to digest all the info.

Well I just called all my clients and told them that I'd be busy looking up info for a new guy on the forum. What other things can I look up?

this posting was provide by 'tongue in cheek LLC', any and all info contained should be taken with a grain of salt and a large helping of "sense of humour" found in your local drug store. Any feelings of hurt should be ignored as these are sympathetic side effects of confusion.
Flashing lights and sirens to warn me next time...

I sprayed coffee all over my new keyboard.

You are a twisted _______, it really hurts to laugh that hard !!!

My lawyers will be reaching out to you, All litigation handled by Dewey, Cheatem & Howe.

.
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  #29  
Old 03-05-2012, 02:14 PM
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FYI

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisH View Post
Ok so bio can be mixed/run with normal diesel? I will deffinetly run veg since most places will give you it lol..I may run oil/atf at some point, in small quantities but it would be at least a year so I've got plenty of time to search it out!
I thought this was frowned on and a external source of bio was best though? I can mod my 18 gallon fuel tank to hold around 25.5 gallons, which I plan to do anyway! It'd be much easier if I can run diesel and bio in the same tank! More room for camping gear.
Read all of this BEFORE getting or using waste vegetable oil.

How to Filter WVO For use ?

Viton hose and O-ring kit sources

The Law and Biofuels in your State or Country....

Biodiesel and WVO - SVO links thread.
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  #30  
Old 03-05-2012, 02:15 PM
Renntag's Avatar
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kona, Hi
Posts: 1,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by whunter View Post
Flashing lights and sirens to warn me next time...

I sprayed coffee all over my new keyboard.

You are a twisted _______, it really hurts to laugh that hard !!!

My lawyers will be reaching out to you, All litigation handled by Dewey, Cheatem & Howe.

.
Roy !!! We use the same law firm !!

Let me know, I will send you a free keyboard and a sample of my home roasted Kona Coffee !

Twisted? ah, dunno. Sarcastic pr*ck? Maybe?
Good hearted and respectful? Always.

__________________
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84 300SD Daily driver
85 300TD almost 400k miles and driven daily.
98 E300D *sold
86 300SDL *sold and made flawless 10 hour journey to new home.
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