sorry for another dumb question ( i know this may be a dooh moment but i just had to ask b4 i go out in the garage to freeze my butt off , instead of fumbling around out there .....
1. but where is that hole your talking about on the governor housing ...
2. maybe i'm blind or ..... butmost of the discussion .... ( i know u have to start somewhere ) seems to deal with checking the timing ...but once i do find out ... how to i adjust it ....

thanks in advance ...

sounds like you need heat in your garage...

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 560SL convertible
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
2005 Dodge Sprinter 2500 158"WB
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

I've got heat in mine, but no room to pull any project cars IN the garage to take advantage of the heat...

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 560SL convertible
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
2005 Dodge Sprinter 2500 158"WB
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

My guess is that if the injection pump timing is off in your case so will the cam timing be as well. First step is to find out if the timing is off. Probably correct the cam timing sprocket. Then pull the pump and lock it for reinstallation When everything else is ready. You may have to get the locking tool from our tool program. In a way your set up for the injection pump is an improvement on the earlier models.

Not a dumb question at all by the way. The pictures shown on other threads of your post and the archives hopefully will help you identify the timing port. I do not own an injection pump of your type.

i went in my cold garage today and I got it apart enuf to take some pictures of what it looks like .... ( i forgot to put that tming " tab " back on and so had to take it apart to put it on so we could check the timing not sure if it helps but it was suggested itming marks compared to camshaft .... not once did the camshaft top out while crank pully was on 15 deg mark ( on either side of T i assume that's what T on the pulley means ... ... the part that confused me tho i was expecting just one set of marks .. but it was on either side of T so i took pictures on both side ...sadly niether lines up ... just fyi the sequence of the pics is as follows ..... the crank position then what the cam position on cyl 1 was .... the only time it was @ top was in middle of nowhere as u can see...... yet it ran ... let me know what u think


the images can also be found @ this link on my work site

http://oilfielddirectory.com/carpics

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I've put some of your words in BOLD , when you say this are you talking about the pointer that is attached to the timing case cover and points too or indicates the degree markings on the harmonic balancer? The little cut off triangle metal piece? Is that the part you removed when you took the timing case cover off originally, you forgot to reinstall it when you put things back together originally, and today when you started trying to do something realized it was missing and today reinstalled it?

The harmonic balancer it marked in degrees both before and after TOP DEAD CENTER that is why there are two scales.

Set the harmonic balancer at zero and check where the cam timing refferance marks are then. The injection pump is timed at the fifteen degree position but the cam at the zero position.

Remember the lobes of the cams first cylinder must be pointing generally upward at perhaps a forty five degree angle. If they are pointing downward the cam refferance marks will be way off .So you will have to turn the crank one full turn back to the harmonic dampers zero mark.

Just go slow and it will mentally all fall into place. This is caused by the crank having to turn twice for the cam to turn once if you think about the four stroke engine cycle.

In your case the tang in the injection port might have been easier but something will come of it the way you are doing it. Do not get overly concerned at this time. Plus try not to get frustrated. Look at the upside as well. There should be no parts to buy basically to get this corrected if it is found the timing is off. If you have a chance and the time look up the otto four stroke engine theory on the net if you do not understand it. It makes life a lot easier if you do.

We live in a five bedroom igloo on the east coast of Canada. May as well serve the steriotype. The southerners love it.

Where are you that it is presently 20 degrees below? We just got colder reciently but no where near that. I will try to periodically get back to your thread as much as possible. Tomorrow is unpredictable though as the wife has many other things for me to deal with. .Gotta tune up the dog team and go get a christmas tree for one. We agreed many years ago to always go cut our own christmas tree down. I guess that I am a sucker for punishment but an agreement is an agreement.

We agreed to do this long ago until we were eventually physically incapable of doing it..I have fortunatly since learnt to examine the fine print in intermarital relationship agreements but too late for that one.

[QUOTE=Mark Rapier;3065763]I've put some of your words in BOLD , when you say this are you talking about the pointer that is attached to the timing case cover and points too or indicates the degree markings on the harmonic balancer? The little cut off triangle metal piece? Is that the part you removed when you took the timing case cover off originally, you forgot to reinstall it when you put things back together originally, and today when you started trying to do something realized it was missing and today reinstalled it?


Yep ... that's the piece i'm talking about ... i forgot to re-install it when i put it back together

[QUOTE=barry12345;3065823]Set the harmonic balancer at zero and check where the cam timing refferance marks are then. The injection pump is timed at the fifteen degree position but the cam at the zero position.

people keep talking about the cam timing reference marks ... where is that ????

the reason i took the valve cover off it was no big deal ( dont know where that blasted injection pump port is i'm supposed to be looking in ..... too

you said ...............
Remember the lobes of the cams first cylinder must be pointing generally upward at perhaps a forty five degree angle.

----->>> i assumed they were supposed to be vertical like in picture # 31

are you saying they should be like picture # 11 instead .....

ps ... all crank pics ( altho it may not been easily readable ) are taken @ 15 deg mark then next pic in sequence shows where the cam was sitting in relation to it ...... hope that explains it well enuf ....

for example ..... pic # 30 is the crank position in middle of nowhere ( blank space ) # pic # 31 is position of cam
pic # 8 is crank @ 15 right of T and pic # 11 is position of cam
pic # 35 is crank @ 15 left of T and pic # 36 id cam position again hope that helps or makes some sense ....


If they are pointing downward the cam refferance marks will be way off .So you will have to turn the crank one full turn back to the harmonic dampers zero mark.

glad you mentioned that about the cams i meant to ask.. which one are we " worried " about ... the 1 st or second one lining up ....

ok i will take another picture of it @ zero and show u results .....

and where the heck is that port i'm supposed to be looking in what am i missing here ....

[QUOTE=netpro;3065843]The problem is that because you removed that pointer from where it was originally located and now reinstalled it back into a position that you never marked there is no way of knowing exactly where it is actually indicating now! On this engine the pointer is adjusted to point directly at the TDC mark after you physically set and measure that the #1 piston is actually at the exact TDC position. You set the piston at TDC and adjust the pointer to reflect that, as it is now you've reinstalled the pointer somewhere within its range of adjustment but you have no actual idea of where the #1 piston was located when you did that.

In order to do anything to check the timing of the injection pump you would have to re-establish the correct position of that pointer to reflect actual TDC.

The problem for you is that procedure is quite technical, you need some specific tools, and you need to pull the #1 injector, prechamber and glowplug to gain access to the top of the piston to measure when it is at exact TDC.

You need to go to that online Factory Service Manual and find procedure 03-345 Checking and correcting adjustment of TDC sensor, that way you can see exactly what I'm talking about. You probably will need to print out the procedure and show it to whatever mechanic who can help you if you go that route. A good mechanic should be able to figure out from that what actually needs to be accomplished and he can probably figure out a way to do that without MB specific tools, but your going to have to access the top of the piston to verify the actual TDC. That can be done either through the prechamber bore or after removing the cylinder head!

For the blade on the IP, on the driver's side of the IP about 2/3rds of the way back just rearward of the lift pump and just below the pump's identification plate, there is a large (17 mm I think) bolt head. That bolt its actually a plug and is what you remove (there is a crush washer usually aluminum don't lose that) inside of the hole from which you removed that bolt is the blade that rotates. That blade looks like the tip of a screwdriver blade. It's designed to to be exactly centered in that hole when the the properly set indicator that points to the scale on the harmonic balancer reads 15 degrees after ATDC. There is a locking tool that secures that blade in place when needed, there is also an indicator light tool which contacts that blade in order to set the timing exactly as the IP is rotated when setting the timing.

Usually you will need a mirror and a light to see the blade clearly to determine if it is a close to centered as can be.

You should probably be turning your engine over only with your hands and tools rather than using the starter or running it until you figure out if the timing is actually off. If the timing is off too much you will cause the pistons to strike the valves damaging something.

Photograph number two looks about right to indicate the enine is on the right stroke to check the camshaft timing and presence of the tang in the injection pump. Remember again though cam timing marks are checked at zero degrees on the harmonic balancer. The tang presence at 15 degrees. I am not getting into other aspects yet until it is decided if the timing is seriously off or not.

You may be able to be a little further off because of your hydralic lifters than an earlier engine with basically solid lifters could tollerate.

[QUOTE=Mark Rapier;3065877]yeah i'm justing a ratchet to turn over ..... ( see in pic actually ) it's crazy to use starter .... what if it started lol

thanks for the info

here you go guys ... i managed to fine the tab in IP and center it as best i could and take a picture of where the marker was pointing on the crank ... just keep in mind i dont know how accurate that " mark " is since that was re-installed ( but tried to center it as best possible .... let me know what u think and where to go from here

thanks in advance .....

Scott

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I dialed 603 cam timing marks into the archives. Under a post called om603 timing chain screwup I found a photographic indicator of the cam timing marks on your 603 type engine.

On many of the other threads contained in that segment of the archives you will find other better pictures and descriptions as well I believe. Time to dive into the archives for you. There is a lot of information posted as so many did not grasp the timing system of this engine and the questions of posters and the answers should help you as well.

As for the timing pointer for the harmonic balancer. You have cleaned the case well enough that there is no indication of where it was exactly before removal. I was thinking it might be worthwhile to remove it and examine it for any indications of where the bolt that held it on may have left a mark on the pointer slot itself . You thought the overall range of the pointer slot was either five degrees each side of centre or was that five degrees total movement of its total slot capacity? From one side to the other. Or is it even worse if the pointer can rotate somewhat as well as just slide sideways? Anyways there is no way to trust that form of approach.

Now that it looks pretty certain the timing is off. Although the pointer may be giving a false indication. The pointer has to be restored to indicate top dead centre properly and accuratly as a previous poster pointed out.

There are two ways at least to do this. A dial gauge with the injector and pre chamber removed is the factory recomendation. This means you have to make or get your hands on a pre chamber puller and a dial gauge if you do not have one.

Or remove the number one cylinder injector and fill the cylinder with engine oil. Say with the engine perhaps about 20 degrees off of your currently indicated top dead centre. At this point there is no concern on the direction you rotate the engine basically. So you could start with where you are now. As you rotate the piston upward the oil will spill out the injector hole. At some point it will stop. Look at your harmonic balancer mark then. Mentaly record or write down the indicators position. Now move the engine further the same direction you where going so the oil level drops a little. Add a little more oil. Then turn the engine in the other direction until the oil is back up to the top of the injector bore and has stopped spilling out. Read the harmonic balancer again. If it is the same as it was when you went the first way . Loosen the timing marker and set it to top dead centre. The two readings on the harmonic balancer may not be identical so you will split the degree differance to locate the pointer. This can be caused by some slop and at the apex of the crankshaft arc there is some crank movement with little to no piston movement. Same issue using a dial gauge approach by the way. It just takes a little care to get this right. Double checking it by doing the proceedure twice is also wise.

You want to be pretty observant and have good lighting to estimate when the oil has stopped flowing. With a little luck and care you will have the true top dead centre point established. If this is beyond your ablities or there arrise some unseen issues that you cannot work around then you are going to have to do this the harder way. Have rags available to wipe off the oil from the surface it is flowing on to see when it truly just stops flowing.

I can be very fussy for example sometimes. I would take my compression tester adaptor and put on a small diameter plastic tube so I could watch the oil rise in the tube and mark the tube with a piece of tape. The much smaller diameter of the plastic tube makes determination of when it stops spilling. Or in the case of the tube either stops spilling out of it or rising in the tube. An even more accurate approach. This whole proceedure can only be done easily on the power stroke that you are on now.On the other stroke you might have oil escaping through the valves remember.

Done carefully it is going to be very adaquate for finding true top dead centre. Sorry to do this to you but until you got going did not want to overcomplicate things.

As I warned earlier you are not probably going to have to spend money but you are in for some labour. You can do this in my opinion. Your self confidence will build as you move along as well. Most members including myself are not working mechanics. So when we started repairing our own cars knew little at one time. We all have to keep learning it seems..

first of all dont sweat it about the your "supposed" long winded answer I LIKE it ... details are good

just to answer your questions ...YES i did find that pic of timing cam timing marks ..... what i'm confused about is " is that the exact spot they are supposed to be lined up @ ...the top and IF so, when ? ....

in otherwords ... i'm assuming when the piston is @ TDC and then u want me to adjust the timing mark pointer on the crank pulley to the Td mark ... is that correct ... and btw i love your idea with the tube / hose to figure out TDC ... that's great idea i'm gonna try that .... sat... i'm sure i can do that np ...

and secondly you made a good point on doing it only on power stroke .... obv want to make sure it's on PS only .. dont want to just keep pouring oil in the cylinder un-necessarily ...

catch you later ... thanks for all the great advice couldnt have done it without all the excellent help and tips ...

thanks Scott