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#1
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steering box bolts must be new?
hi folks, just gearing up to swap steering boxes here and i read that the bolts must not be reused. yikes! pelican doesn't sell them, it seems. are people really using brand-new OEM bolts for this job, or will something from the hardware store suffice? i guess there is a copper crush washer involved too, but i am mostly concerned about the bolts, which i previously assumed i would reuse. thanks!
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'77 240D, 504H, OM617.952, etc. |
#2
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I think that's most likely a specification crafted by the lawyers. I would personally have no heartburn about reusing them. I would probably use some threadlocker on them though.
Having said that, I'm open to be educated as to a compelling logical/physical/engineering reason for the specification.
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Current Stable
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#3
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These bolts like the Caliper Bolts they recommend to replace ea time.
new one`s from the dealer come with blue lock tight on them. I agree, just clean them off and replace with Lock Tight.
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there were three HP ratings on the OM616... 1) Not much power 2) Even less power 3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast. 80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works |
#4
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I've swapped out steering boxes, and removed it to clean up and paint and never got new bolts. Those bolts appeared fine to me. Never an issue using the original bolts. They did not appear to be "stretch bolts" so I am thinking it's an over-engineered issue ... at least IMO.
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#5
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I'm pretty sure it is just that people forget to put thread locker on them thing as well.
(And that the steering boxes are prone to fall out of W114 W115s because of rust issues)
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver 1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone 1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy! 1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits! |
#6
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How much would the new bolts cost ?
How important is it that the steering box remain in its working condition ? A box of fancy doughnuts probably costs more than these bolts.... you do not have to find OEM... if the specs for size are the same....and you use Grade 8 bolts... you will be fine. and of course put the locktite on them...
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1980 240d , chain elongation, cam marks reference: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/10414-help-i-need-check-stretch.html http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/305365-9-degrees-chain-stretch.html evap fin cleaning: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/156207-photo-step-step-post-showing-w123-evaporator-removal-1983-240d-1982-300td.html?highlight=evaporator A/C thread http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/297462-c-recommendations-mb-vehicles.html |
#7
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Bolt reuse is just fine, the factory doesn't want to specify a procedure to clean and relocktite bolts. In a dealer environment, it is more cost effective to replace than reuse especially since the parts dept is onsite.
It is unlikely that you would find any useful metric bolts at a generic hardware store, much of the stuff is low grade and expensive. There are real industrial hardware stores like Fastenall but they tend to be $$ and you have to buy a whole box. |
#8
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To those of you who go to hardware stores and think all metric bolts are equal - think again. If my memory serves me correctly these steering box bolts are grade 10 if not grade 12. They are most certainly not 8.8
Please do not downgrade original specifications - it is potentially dangerous - especially on something like steering box bolts. Like most of the posters in this thread so far I am sure the "must always replace with new" problem is loctite related rather than anything else. However, if you are in doubt, then follow the instructions in the FSM. This is the final "argument / discussion killer" => According to MB Atlanta the part numbers are 1299901101 alternative number 1169900701 alternative number 1169900601
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver 1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone 1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy! 1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits! |
#9
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Stretch, this may be a matter of which side of the ocean one is on... I am not suggesting downgrading...
I thought that over here... Grade 8 was/is equal to ' aircraft quality '... but I will look it up to make sure... you know I would never suggest downgrading something like that...I might get accused of the opposite... over caution ... but never under...
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1980 240d , chain elongation, cam marks reference: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=10414 http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/305365-9-degrees-chain-stretch.html evap fin cleaning: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/156207-photo-step-step-post-showing-w123-evaporator-removal-1983-240d-1982-300td.html?highlight=evaporator A/C thread http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/297462-c-recommendations-mb-vehicles.html |
#10
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https://www.google.com/search?q=aircraft+bolt+chart&biw=1003&bih=581&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuisWomp7PAhXBVT4KHbBMAVAQsAQITQ
http://www.metricbolt.com/metric-fasteners-for-aerospace/
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1980 240d , chain elongation, cam marks reference: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=10414 http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/305365-9-degrees-chain-stretch.html evap fin cleaning: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/156207-photo-step-step-post-showing-w123-evaporator-removal-1983-240d-1982-300td.html?highlight=evaporator A/C thread http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/297462-c-recommendations-mb-vehicles.html |
#11
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Quote:
8.8 seems to be "standard" or "a standard" high tensile requirement for most automotive manufacturers (metric fasteners). But sometimes certain things get a higher strength grade spec.
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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver 1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone 1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy! 1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits! |
#12
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Quote:
Grade 5 vs Grade 8 Fasteners - TineLok '''Getting back to the original question, “which fastener grade should I use?” We hope it’s very clear by now that grade 8 fasteners are far superior to grade 5 fasteners. If this is so, then why do the automotive manufacturers use some grade 5 fasteners? The automotive OEM’s use what it needs to be safe and nothing more since there is a difference in cost between grade 5 and grade 8 (or metric 8.8 and 10.9). Since the OEM’s manufacture millions of vehicles each year, the difference in a few cents per fastener adds up to a lot for them.'''
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1980 240d , chain elongation, cam marks reference: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=10414 http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/305365-9-degrees-chain-stretch.html evap fin cleaning: http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/156207-photo-step-step-post-showing-w123-evaporator-removal-1983-240d-1982-300td.html?highlight=evaporator A/C thread http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/297462-c-recommendations-mb-vehicles.html |
#13
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In the US SAE grades bolts with a single number
Grade 1 or 2 has no lines in the bolt head. These are the typical hardware store bolts made from melted paperclips / coat hangers. These bolts have about zero usefulness on a car. Grade 5 has 3 lines on the bolt head. In the days of SAE non metric, it is a generic bolt used over most of a car. Grade 8 has 6 lines on the head. It is generally used in higher load areas where a larger bolt can't be used. SAE Grade 8 isn't anywhere near AN / "Aircraft" bolts in terms of strength, material quality / consistency / sizing. AN bolts are sized in 1/8" length increments by grip length in an effort to keep threads out of the joint area. Flat washers are used under the nut in order to fully accommodate this. Metric bolts ( ISO standard ? ) uses the format X.X A 8.8 is just over SAE grade 5 10.8 just over SAE grade 8 12.8 is about 18% over grade 8 https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/materials-and-grades/bolt-grade-chart.aspx Each bolt type has it's place beyond cost. Lower grade bolts will bend under impact rather than break like a higher strength bolt. In general higher strength = more brittle. |
#14
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I wouldn't worry about re-using them. Indeed, I re-used the torque-to-yield head bolts on my Chrysler 2.4L engine and no problem in 140K miles since, even though the FSM says to use new bolts. Figured I would just yield them a bit more and as long as no neck-down it "should work".
Along w/ grade, also consider corrosion resistance. The SAE Grade 8 bolts at Ace have a yellow coating (chromate?), but don't recall similar in their metric bolts. Re torquing w/ lubrication in the post #12 link, oil on the threads does not change the torque to tension relation, according to a chart a former Rocketdyne engineer showed me (perhaps from NASA). A little oil on the threads gives more consistent torques. But, a high-pressure lubricant like molybdenum disulfide (even dry powder) can decrease the required torque by a factor of 2, and even more if under the bolt head. Of course, never fill the bolt hole w/ oil or you can get "hydraulic lock" and thus way under-torque it.
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1984 & 1985 CA 300D's 1964 & 65 Mopar's - Valiant, Dart, Newport 1996 & 2002 Chrysler minivans |
#15
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I didn't know you weren't supposed to reuse the bolts, so I just cleaned, applied thread locker, and reused them. The steering box hasn't fallen out of my car nor come loose yet and its been years.
Should you do that? If you're concerned, then no, you should get and use new OEM bolts, because that's what it says to do in the manual. We can try to second guess why the manual says to always use new bolts, but we don't actually have the information to come up with guaranteed correct answers. Since the bolts didn't seem to be any special stretch-to-yield sort, I'm comfortable with the work I did, and would be comfortable doing it that way again too.
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'83 300DTurbo http://badges.fuelly.com/images/smallsig-us/318559.png Broadband: more lies faster. |
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