W210 "EGR Intake & Valve broken due to pipe separated from valve" - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Devon · #1 10-09-2017, 08:36 PM

Have had my new (to me) W210 for a few months, has been a dream upgrading from a W124 OM602 to this peppy OM606. Everything's been great other than an occasional MAF sensor CEL when driving through dusty areas that can be cleared and doesn't return.

Taking a scenic cruise yesterday, suddenly notice the engine sounds different, muffled and muted, and power is nonexistent, turbo doesn't seem to engage, can barely make it up hills. Noted the usual P0100 MAF CEL, as well as triggering P0243 "Turbo waste gate solenoid A" when attempting to make it up a big hill and putting the pedal all the way down.

Limp home, try to take it to the shop the next day and can barely make it above 20mph, will struggle and sputter, sounds horrible.

One of the local indy shops (in the Bay Area there are many, fortunately) quotes $2100:

"Inspected intake system, found EGR Intake Pipe & EGR Valve broken due to pipe being separated from valve. Advise customer parts are coming from Germany & $2100 to repair (parts & labor)."

Shopping this around to the other indy shops, hoping for something a little less painful... mentioning an EGR delete doesn't hurt right?

With my limited knowledge this does make sense based on symptoms I'm feeling and hearing.

Is this quote way off? Second opinions? Recommendations on mechanics in the Bay Area? Any help/advice/guidance is much appreciated

sixto · #2 10-09-2017, 10:40 PM

Had EGR been deleted on this engine? Is the EGR valve broken or the pipe from the exhaust manifold broke off? I don't think an honest shop is going to mess with anything less than replacing suspected emissions devices. Suggesting they delete EGR should end the conversation.

Sixto
98 E320s sedan and wagon

Devon · #3 10-09-2017, 10:52 PM

EGR had not been deleted, figured I would throw out that hypothetical request as a joke, of course I don’t think any reputable shop would even consider.

The shop states both the pipe and the valve are broken, that majority of EGR system would need replacement.

sixto · #4 10-09-2017, 11:06 PM

The site sponsor has the EGR pipe that runs from the exhanst manifold to the intake manifold for $465. It's just shaped pipe with flared ends. The EGR valve looks integral with the missing pipe. That's gotta be in the high hundreds.

I don't know if you can remove these parts from below. Otherwise the intake manifold has to come off. Are you up to it to save 2-3 hours of shop labor? And possibly cobble a repair without new parts?

EGR delete isn't literal in a 606 turbo. You need the EGR mixing pipe to attach the intercooler pipe to the intake manifold. Delete disables EGR function. It sounds like you still have broken plumbing to sort.

Sixto
98 E320s sedan and wagon

Devon · #5 10-09-2017, 11:26 PM

Plumbing issues for sure. Ever heard of this occurring before? No incidents or trauma I can recall, no obvious rust as it’s lived in SF it’s whole life. Need to get photos of the area for exact details.

Thanks for parting it out, I honestly needed some help ID’ing components. Wish I had a space/proper tools/time to even consider DIY, more so seeking confirmation on the severity/price aspect.

When you say cobble a repair without new parts? I’m visualizing lots of foil tape and prayers 😂

Now, to find a buddy with a garage...

sixto · #6 10-09-2017, 11:55 PM

I don't suppose you have one of these - Pit Row – Do-it-yourself (DIY) and Full Service Auto Repair - where you are.

I can't imagine what's physically broken either but the connecting pipe is just pipe and the EGR valve assembly is simple aluminum that I'm pretty sure can be welded. Maybe someone on the Diesel performance forum has EGR parts to spare. Or a MB wrecking yard.

Here's what you're dealing with - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBOCVrJ8R38&sns=em
Sixto
98 E320s sedan and wagon

Devon · #7 10-10-2017, 01:29 AM

That's right around the corner from me in Santa Clara, very good to know.

Hmm, will make a closer inspection and consider how practical this might be, 35/hr at Pit Row does sound refreshing.

Makes me wonder if it's this sort of physical failure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1BehycLQCo Not that there's any explanation for that either.

Devon · #8 10-10-2017, 07:36 PM

Got a much clearer understanding today of the issue, turns out it's actually the pipe exiting intercooler(CHARGING AIR LINE)(158) into the EGR valve/housing(HOUSING MIXING CHAMBER WITH INTEGRATED EXHAUSTGAS RECIRCULATION VALVE)(140) that are damaged. Mechanic indicated that the pipe has broken free from its mounts, and that whatever force or damage occurred also cracked a hole the bottom flange of the EGR valve, causing a crack/opening to appear (that he'd drawn in on the diagram) out of which unpressurized air is entering/exhaust is escaping, thus causing a sort of feedback loop when attempting to accelerate. He estimated there had to be a hell of a bottoming-out to put that amount of stress on that pipe and crack it loose/damage the EGR valve/housing. I certainly don't recall anything like that happening but it's all water under the bridge now. The shop attempted a band aid to the afflicted area but it didn't hold for more than a few feet once engine shifts on its mounts under load. Of course the EGR valve is apparently unique for the OM606.962 vs 961, can anyone else provide more context for this?

Shop says they will have to repair from below, ideal for them vs removing intake manifold (and having the convenience of a lift) and as they are unsure of exactly how post-intercooler pipe attachments have been affected/damaged as well. Not even remotely on my DIY radar now :/

SD Blue · #9 10-10-2017, 07:59 PM

As Sixto suggested, a local welder could probably repair that for considerably less than the shop quote. Due to liability reasons, many shops will only do a replacement of parts anymore.

Also, to get a welder to agree to repairs, you will likely need to remove the parts, for the same liability reasons.

sixto · #10 10-10-2017, 08:45 PM

What's a 606.961? 98-99 have the 606.962 and share IC downstream pipe and EGR mixing pipe. I don't know if the .910 ('95 E300) and .912 (96-97 E300) share EGR valves but they'll be very different from the turbo engine since EGR feeds into intake manifold on the US passenger side upstream of the variable length intake runners.

The immediate questions are how do you manage without a car until the damage is fixed, and where can you work on and store your car in the meantime.

Here's a picture for perspective -

It's highly unlikely bottoming damaged the pipe. Maybe someone set a jack under the IC pipe.

Sixto
98 E320s sedan and wagon

torsionbar · #11 10-11-2017, 01:16 PM

Manifold, EGR valve body, and pipes are all made of aluminum. Any machine shop can TIG broken parts back together, for a LOT cheaper than replacing them. But yes, you'll have to remove the parts and take them to the machine shop. Even paying the mechanic to remove the parts, paying the machine shop to TIG them, and paying the mechanic again to re-install them is going to be cheaper than buying new MB parts.

You can also try ebay.de for buying used parts. Many of the German sellers do speak English, and will ship to the US if you ask. While these om606 turbo engines are somewhat rare in the US, they are commonplace in europe. I recently bought an om606 turbo intake manifold from ebay.de for $40 + $60 shipping = $100 and it even came with the MAF still bolted on.

The MAF CEL when driving through dusty places is concerning though. That's what your air filter is for. The air filter box on these cars can become warped from the heat of the turbo, preventing a good seal on the filter. Check that yours isn't warped. You should be able to drive through a Iraq desert sand storm without getting a MAF CEL. I'm certain you have a leak somewhere, allowing unfiltered air to enter.

Devon · #12 10-11-2017, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixto

What's a 606.961? 98-99 have the 606.962 and share IC downstream pipe and EGR mixing pipe. I don't know if the .910 ('95 E300) and .912 (96-97 E300) share EGR valves but they'll be very different from the turbo engine since EGR feeds into intake manifold on the US passenger side upstream of the variable length intake runners.

The immediate questions are how do you manage without a car until the damage is fixed, and where can you work on and store your car in the meantime.

Here's a picture for perspective -

It's highly unlikely bottoming damaged the pipe. Maybe someone set a jack under the IC pipe.

Sixto
98 E320s sedan and wagon

Whoops, meant .910/.912 couldn't share EGR parts with .962, as you said, totally different layout. (I believe .961 is found in W140's)

Thanks for the photo, especially from that angle I see how unlikely bottoming out could affect the IC pipe as it seems pretty well protected, tucked alongside engine block. I wish I could attribute it to carelessness with a jack, no one, not even myself have been underneath in many months, but I wouldn't rule it out as I've had the car for less than a year.

As much as I hate to give in & go with the shop's resolution, think it's still the most practical, I don't have the time or means to get the parts out, find a machine shop, and eBay.de turned up nothing, checked with some online used parts warehouses, nothing, seems like a truly hard to find part. The shop reneged on their overpriced labor after a few probing questions and gave me a more reasonable quote so I'll just be happy to get it back & on the road.

You're spot on about the air filter box, it's in pretty bad shape & doesn't align fully, that's further on down my list...

Thanks especially to Sixto, and torsionbar, for entertaining all my newbie questions!

ROLLGUY · #13 10-11-2017, 09:16 PM

I remember replacing the charge air pipes (#185 & #158) on my '99 a few years ago, and I think they were around $100 each. I actually ordered them from our sponsor. If you can avoid their (mechanic shop) parts markup, and provide the parts, it would only cost the labor to replace them. The parts are not that difficult to replace. I imagine less than two hours shop time to replace those parts, even if the tech is slow and methodical.

tjts1 · #14 10-11-2017, 09:44 PM

How about some pics of the damage. This shop sounds shady.

Devon · #15 10-17-2017, 06:04 PM

Finally have the car and parts back. The shop greatly "reduced" their labor rates when confronted about the figure, still overpriced but better than it was, wishing I had the time/space/tools to have done it myself.

Looks entirely like damage to the mounting brackets for these parts, unable to stay connected, most likely an old wound to the lower core support area that also was mentioned as needing repair at some point, stress fractures to the metal that finally let loose and disconnected from one another.