Feasability?- CDI drivetrain swapped into E320 wagon - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

97 SL320 · #1 07-23-2018, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

I agree. There are electronic components (i.e. instrument cluster, external transmission controller,...) that cannot be accessed unless you have diagnostics computer and access to the factory database - which means a trip to the dealership. My local dealership charges $160/hour and they are not shy about writing up as many hours as they can.

Are you aware how much an actual Xentry system and annual updates cost?

I'm guessing a smaller dealer will have at least 2 systems and a larger one 4 - 6.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

Many of the late model components are designed to not be easily swappable. The reason I was told is to reduce theft of cars for parts sales. I would guess it is also to support the dealerships.....

. . Or to lower insurance costs for car owners.

If you think MB is bad, do some searching on the net and U tube for Tesla repair access.

Don Andres · #2 07-23-2018, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

Are you aware how much an actual Xentry system and annual updates cost?

I'm guessing a smaller dealer will have at least 2 systems and a larger one 4 - 6.

. . Or to lower insurance costs for car owners.

If you think MB is bad, do some searching on the net and U tube for Tesla repair access.

I don't think MB dealerships are particularly bad - from what I have seen in the market most brands are up there these days.

I do not want to pay this much because breakdowns and expensive repairs have become all too common based on my personal experience. Repairs on my '06 and '08 Mercedes have cost over $14k in 15 months. Definitely way too much money combined with lousy reliability to hold on to them. Both are 120-130k miles and I have them serviced regularly. These cars have too many parts -in my experience- that are prone to failure and once they're past a certain age/mileage become too expensive to maintain.

I remember my Mercedes cars from the 70s, 80s and 90s being very reliable with proper maintenance, even with high mileage. So I'm going back to that, focusing on clean W126 and W124 models. I don't mind not driving the latest and greatest. We'll see how I'll do with those. They are likely going to have repair needs too but it won't be failing computers that cause all 4 wheels to lock up or leaking air struts or steering angle sensors or intake manifolds that have non-replaceable plastic parts on them.... and on goes the list.

Mercedes is probably one of the finest new car money can buy but I'm not willing to spend that much money on a car. They just depreciate too quickly. Buying a 10 year old one and have reliable wheels doesn't seem to be an option anymore so I'm trying something else. YMMV

tjts1 · #3 07-23-2018, 07:02 PM

If you had both complete cars side by side you could swap all the electronic components from the CDI into the wagon. The only real difference is the rear tailgate. You could do it without xentry. A simple icarsoft would be enough to Id compatibility, read live data and clear any codes that might pop up.

I've seen people do C32 and C55 drivetrain into a c240 wagon in their garage without issue. This isn't much different. I'm still not convinced this is a worthwhile endeavor but it's certainly not impossible for the average DIYer.

ROLLGUY · #4 07-23-2018, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

If you had both complete cars side by side you could swap all the electronic components from the CDI into the wagon. The only real difference is the rear tailgate. You could do it without xentry. A simple icarsoft would be enough to Id compatibility, read live data and clear any codes that might pop up.

I've seen people do C32 and C55 drivetrain into a c240 wagon in their garage without issue. This isn't much different. I'm still not convinced this is a worthwhile endeavor but it's certainly not impossible for the average DIYer.

I would definitely have both the donor and the recipient side by side for the swap. I would probably pull both drivetrains (I will try to sell the gas one while it is still in the car), so the wiring is easier to remove. Then I would remove all the wiring, modules, and specific parts from the gas E that are not needed for the Diesel engine, making it ready to receive the CDI components. I can then remove each component from the CDI, and install it in the wagon. That way I won't forget where everything goes.......Rich

tjts1 · #5 07-23-2018, 10:04 PM

Going from memory on the w203 (assuming the w211 is very similar) the coded components are:

EIS (ignition)
Instrument cluster
ECU
shifter module
Teleaid

The TCM is not coded but obviously the shift programs are different so you'll have to swap that too. The engine wiring harnesses are designed to be modular so you'll unplug one from the under hood fuse box and move it with the other car with the engine. The other issue you might run into is the front and rear SAM (signal aquisition modules) if the optional equipment is different between the 2 cars (sunroof, power seats etc). You'll probably be better off swapping those too. Have STAR or icarsoft on hand. The wagon will take on the CDIs odometer reading and keys.

ROLLGUY · #6 07-23-2018, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

Going from memory on the w203 (assuming the w211 is very similar) the coded components are:

EIS (ignition)
Instrument cluster
ECU
shifter module
Teleaid

The TCM is not coded but obviously the shift programs are different so you'll have to swap that too. The engine wiring harnesses are designed to be modular so you'll unplug one from the under hood fuse box and move it with the other car with the engine. The other issue you might run into is the front and rear SAM (signal aquisition modules) if the optional equipment is different between the 2 cars (sunroof, power seats etc). You'll probably be better off swapping those too. Have STAR or icarsoft on hand. The wagon will take on the CDIs odometer reading and keys.

Great info here, thanks. If I can get away without changing the harness under the dash, that would be great. I think the only thing that may be different between the two cars is heated seats. The CDI does NOT have them. If the wagon does, I might have a problem. However, if it does have modular architecture, heated seats may just be plug-and-play.

97 SL320 · #7 07-24-2018, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

I don't think MB dealerships are particularly bad

Doesn't sound like it from your prior post.

Given you didn't answer the Xentry pricing question I'll answer it for you. Last I checked it was $ 20,000 to buy one system and $ 6,000 per year to keep it active. If the subscription is canceled it will brick after a few months.

I'd figure a small dealer will have 2 systems and larger one 4 to 6. Who pays for this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

I do not want to pay this much because breakdowns and expensive repairs have become all too common based on my personal experience.

You do realize that there are people that are saying the same thing about a recent $ 14,000 Chevy spark? I've heard this same line over the past 4 decades across all makes even though the lifespan of a car has steadily gone up.

Something else to consider, a regular car costs X and a MB some multiplier of X so repair costs will be higher. The cost to buy a used car might go down but cost of repair won't regardless of the brand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

Repairs on my '06 and '08 Mercedes have cost over $14k in 15 months. Definitely way too much money combined with lousy reliability to hold on to them. Both are 120-130k miles and I have them serviced regularly. These cars have too many parts -in my experience- that are prone to failure and once they're past a certain age/mileage become too expensive to maintain.

At 12 years / 130 K miles the car has fulfilled it's primary mission regarding the first and second owners whom likely owned the car for 4 years each. Your solution would be to buy new / CPO and turn it every 4 years, it all comes down to cost per mile.

The amount of electronics in a modern car regardless of brand is staggering. All it takes is the failure of one small part to take down an entire sub system. All of this resides in a hostile environment of heat / cold / rapid temperature swings / vibration / shock.

Think about the physical stresses to electronics when a the interior of a car sitting in the sun goes from 110 *F to 70*F over a few minutes. Or from below zero to 75. I haven't even touched on the range of under hood temps. . .

Electronic components are rated from low to high as Consumer / Industrial / Automotive / Military, this should tell you something about the automotive environment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

I remember my Mercedes cars from the 70s, 80s and 90s being very reliable with proper maintenance, even with high mileage. So I'm going back to that, focusing on clean W126 and W124 models.

With less to break, reliability might be greater regardless of brand however, age takes it toll.

Our guy below thinks the 90's were bad so take them of your list.

Quote:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/vintage-mercedes/394229-why-did-mb-name-c63.html

Post 6

Come to think of it, the '90s weren't a very good time for anything Mercedes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

I don't mind not driving the latest and greatest. We'll see how I'll do with those. They are likely going to have repair needs too but it won't be failing computers that cause all 4 wheels to lock up or leaking air struts or steering angle sensors or intake manifolds that have non-replaceable plastic parts on them.... and on goes the list.

Rapid depreciation should be a tip off that the car might not be a good value to the general public. A complicated car that is $ to repair will have a very low residual value. Think of it this way, you are getting a high end car at a discount but need to spend some $ to keep it going, this is cost of ownership that many overlook.

My 97 SL 320 Sport was about $ 90 K new, bought it in 2011 for $ 6,000 and immediately installed about $ 2,500 in _parts_ to get it to my standards. Currently it has an external coolant leak at the head gasket and I want to rebuild the transmission as a preventive measure.

Even with all of this and adjusted for inflation, I'm about at what the original owner would have paid in _sales tax_. I consider this a pretty good deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Andres

Mercedes is probably one of the finest new car money can buy but I'm not willing to spend that much money on a car. They just depreciate too quickly. Buying a 10 year old one and have reliable wheels doesn't seem to be an option anymore so I'm trying something else. YMMV

Try a Toyota / Honda but don't expect the body to resist rust very much.

vwnate1 · #8 08-13-2018, 11:33 AM

Be *very* cautions here Rich ~ I've been down this road, we're both in California and the AQMD / CARB hates to re certify engine swaps of any typ, more so Diesels from Gassers .

The issue isn't making it pass every emissions test, that's just labor & time and lots of it ~ the # 1 issue is the VIN that tells the State's smog test computer "this car is gasoline" ~ the DMV's computers will know this and even -if- you get the document allowing you to skip the annual smog testing, the DMV's computer will flag it for verification inspection every renewal ~ loose that certificate and you're screwed, no copies allowed and they flat refuse to issue new ones if yours gets lost damaged .

I hate to be a downer here but I've seen many great projects get finished then forced to be scrapped or sold out of state at a dead lo$$ because of failure to understand just how difficult it is to make it legal .

ROLLGUY · #9 08-13-2018, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnate1

Be *very* cautions here Rich ~ I've been down this road, we're both in California and the AQMD / CARB hates to re certify engine swaps of any typ, more so Diesels from Gassers .

The issue isn't making it pass every emissions test, that's just labor & time and lots of it ~ the # 1 issue is the VIN that tells the State's smog test computer "this car is gasoline" ~ the DMV's computers will know this and even -if- you get the document allowing you to skip the annual smog testing, the DMV's computer will flag it for verification inspection every renewal ~ loose that certificate and you're screwed, no copies allowed and they flat refuse to issue new ones if yours gets lost damaged .

I hate to be a downer here but I've seen many great projects get finished then forced to be scrapped or sold out of state at a dead lo$$ because of failure to understand just how difficult it is to make it legal .

That is why I will be taking the car to the referee. They will make everything right in the DMV computer. I am now worried about this at all.

tjts1 · #10 08-13-2018, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnate1

Be *very* cautions here Rich ~ I've been down this road, we're both in California and the AQMD / CARB hates to re certify engine swaps of any typ, more so Diesels from Gassers .

The issue isn't making it pass every emissions test, that's just labor & time and lots of it ~ the # 1 issue is the VIN that tells the State's smog test computer "this car is gasoline" ~ the DMV's computers will know this and even -if- you get the document allowing you to skip the annual smog testing, the DMV's computer will flag it for verification inspection every renewal ~ loose that certificate and you're screwed, no copies allowed and they flat refuse to issue new ones if yours gets lost damaged .

I hate to be a downer here but I've seen many great projects get finished then forced to be scrapped or sold out of state at a dead lo$$ because of failure to understand just how difficult it is to make it legal .

Did you take it to the refferee station first to get the new sticker on the door jamb? Did you use a CARB engine that was the same model year or newer than the chassis?

It's funny, after driving the C320 wagon for a while I find myself in the market for a W211 E500 wagon but for completely different reasons.
https://youtu.be/E4dqCJkdvpA

ROLLGUY · #11 08-13-2018, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

..........................
It's funny, after driving the C320 wagon for a while I find myself in the market for a W211 E500 wagon but for completely different reasons.
https://youtu.be/E4dqCJkdvpA

I think a CDI wagon with the 6 speed would be even better! I imagine this combination is available in Europe. About 18 years ago I went to Germany, and drove around in a Diesel MB 6 speed manual sedan, and it was a rocket ship! I was not into 'Benz's then, so I don't remember what model it was. I do know that it was fast and fun to drive.......Rich

sam735 · #12 04-09-2020, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROLLGUY

I think a CDI wagon with the 6 speed would be even better! I imagine this combination is available in Europe. About 18 years ago I went to Germany, and drove around in a Diesel MB 6 speed manual sedan, and it was a rocket ship! I was not into 'Benz's then, so I don't remember what model it was. I do know that it was fast and fun to drive.......Rich

Did you give up on doing this swap?

ROLLGUY · #13 04-09-2020, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sam735

Did you give up on doing this swap?

Thanks for resurrecting this thread! To answer your question, not really, just postponed. I have so many other projects that I have to finish. Another BIG reason is that I have not found a donor car yet. If I find a good candidate, the project may get moved forward.....Rich

atypicalguy · #14 08-14-2018, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjts1

Did you take it to the refferee station first to get the new sticker on the door jamb? Did you use a CARB engine that was the same model year or newer than the chassis?

It's funny, after driving the C320 wagon for a while I find myself in the market for a W211 E500 wagon but for completely different reasons.
https://youtu.be/E4dqCJkdvpA

That e500 thing in the video looks rather slow. If you're going to swap something, put a compressor motor into it at least.

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