Larry,
I have to agree with you pretty much across the board. The 123 is just a more rugged, reliable car. I personally like the 5 cylinder as around hilly S.F. the time I want/need the extra power far exceeds the incremental hassle in trying to maintain it vs. a 4 cylinder. I agree that 124 is much more fun to drive and has creature comforts the 123 lacks but it is just not as solidly put together. I continue to be struck by the number of plastic parts on the 124 vs. 123. I don't think it was a cost cutting measure as much as a weight issue, mileage counts and MBZ needed to do something to help offset the weight of all the added options. As these cars age the plastic gets brittle and parts break. I haven't noticed a big parts price difference but I sure do notice the relative work involved to do the same job, just look at removing a door panel as an example, the 124 is far more complicated. All said and done I still love them both. I tend to use the 123 for the hard around town driving and the 124 for longer trips where I appreciate the creature comforts more and the miles are a bit easier on the equipment. To me the 123 vs. 124 debate is the ebodiment of the old addage that there is no free lunch.

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LRG
1987 300D Turbo 175K
2006 Toyota Prius, efficent but no soul
1985 300 TDT(130K miles of trouble free motoring)now sold

In addition to all the electronic KEIII crap I've put on mine, the other systems fail on a regular basis. I just replaced my water pump last Sunday. By Friday the belt was slipping after the tensioner decided it was time for it to die. Another $140 and several hours labor. I can't get the damn thing to run long enough to get it to a shop to fix the major problems!!! I have never owned a car that gave this much trouble. The MB star on it's hood is beginning to look like a swaztika to me. I was gonna call it "Hitler's Revenge", but that wouldn't be fair to Hitler.

Larry's 124 car is a 300E.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Contrary to the spirit of this thread, I have actually been very pleased with my 124. The only “creature comfort” parts out of all that have been replaced over the past 65K have been the vacuum pump for the door locks ($90 used) and a vacuum actuator for the driver’s door ($11 from dealer). The door panel took maybe 15 minutes to remove, by the way.

I have had no electrical problems or any issues with the ABS, ASD, CC, AC, power seats/mirrors or even the radio for that matter – well, I did replace the mast… as I did on my 123!

As a matter of fact, all the other stuff: tie rods, radiator, ball joints, shocks/struts, brakes, tires, rotors, shut off valve etc… are likely to have been needed on any MB car gas or diesel, ’82 or ’92.

I am curious as to weather or not the 90-93 300D’s benefited from the lessons learned on earlier 124s.

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1996 (W210) E300D 86K - Traded in for a Lexus
1992 (W124) 300D 2.5 Turbo 202K - Sold
1983 (W123) 300D, 146K - Sold
1970 280S, 263K - Sold - Beginning of addiction

I agree the 123 is a far better car than the 124.. I have both.. An 85 300TDT with 87,000 miles and a 92 124 300E with 78,000.. and just sold my 78 300CD with near 300000 miles on it that had very few problems. The 124 has had all the 124 stuff.. Water pumps, Headgasket, wiring problems, Belt tensioner, trans problems Ect.. My 124 is a just a money pit.. However it is payed for so we will keep it.. It will spend most of its time under the car cover... Seems like most every time we dirve it some thing goes wrong.. By far the worst car I have ever owned.. And it is in show condition and never missed a service..

Ken

Don't forget valve seals! Alot of 300E's really like thier oil.

Hello,
On the subject of repairs and durability, I can list the work done on *my* 1989 W124 260E (170,000 miles)
1. Radiator ($300) diy
2. Valve stem seals ($360) shop
3. Trans reseal and new oil pan ($450) shop
4. Aircon ($800) shop
5. Electric window motor ($150) diy
6. 4xBilsteins ($800) diy
7. Steering damper ($60) diy
8. Battery ($80) diy, this is only the third battery since 1989.
9. Fuel tank sender ($140) shop
10. Engine mounts ($250) diy
11. Water hoses ($50) diy
12. Timing cover reseal ($20) diy, done twice, 1997 then 2002.
13. Mixture adjustment to cure stumbling from hot restart ($0) diy
14. And sundries like brake pads, oils, coolant etc.

In the six years I was maintaining this car, it went from 67,000 miles to the present 170,000 miles.

It needs
1. Vacuum elements in ACC
2. Rear suspension arms
3. Serpentine belt tensioner

It is light years ahead of the W115 or W123 in terms of road dynamics (whatever that means). I compare it with the ML320 that it shares the garage with and find that the build quality and materials in the 124 are much better than the 163.
I used the silent sunroof of the 124 as a yardstick to convince the dealer (They all do that, sir !) to replace the 163's groaning sunroof.

The 2002 W163 has had the following repairs under warranty
1. Sunroof replaced
2. Brake light switch failure, car had to be put on flatbed and taken to dealer because the shifter will not move out of Park
3. Wheel alignment (twice) it was wearing all 4 tyres on the outer shoulders, Dunlops replaced at 22,000 miles by me out of sheer frustration.
4. Throttle cable and switch, I complained that the throttle was too *sticky*, in the meantime, it has become sticky again !
5. Battery (twice).

If I could afford it, I would still buy another 124.

Have a good week.

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Nachi11744

When I started my 123 experiment (convert 4 drivers in the family and get rid of domestic stuff), I took the challenge very seriously. I'd had a Volvo diesel but heard the MB stuff was better. Fortunately, my first was a 123 and I fell in love with it.

I am nearing my first collective (between the 4 daily drivers) 100,000 miles. My girls, my wife and I all love these things. My wife loves hers because it never changes and never lets her down. I overheard her bragging about it to someone the other day, so that base is covered.

My TD gave me fits early on (lots of maintainence to catch up on combined with my ignorance), but it has leveled out nicely.

I have just cleared my 25th month of being "repair shop free". I feel like through the help of this forum, that we're beating the system.

This latest parts car ($200) is incredible. In two weeks, I've taken over $1000 (fastlane prices) of parts off it for my cars and a buddies that I fixin up.

All of this to say another huge thanks to this forum because as of 3 years ago, I thought 123 represented the first three numbers in our numbering system.

Don

__________________
DAILY DRIVERS:
'84 300DT 298k (Aubrey's)
'99.5 Jetta TDI IV 251k (Julie's)
'97 Jetta TDI 127k (Amber's)
'97 Jetta TDI 186k (Matt's)
'96 Passat TDI 237k (Don's
'84 300D 211k Mint (Arne- Undergoing Greasecar Conversion)

SOLD:
'82 240D 229k (Matt's - Converted-300DT w/ 4 speed

The W123's are wonderful cars. They are like driving a solid tank, and they do feel a lot more solid than the W124. Probably because they're that much heavier(and yes, less plastic).

I like the W124 better because of the bodies. No, I'm not talking about looks, I'm talking about rust. Although they're not as bad as the W116, the W123's still get rust in the frame. That could be dangerous in a severe accident. You would be killed. If I lived somewhere south of here in New England, I may re-evaluate my choice. It's really hard to take care of a W123 around here, and the weather is unpredictable. Both the W123 and the W124 cars saved both my sisters' lives. One of my sisters was saved twice!

The '96 - '02 E-Class(W210) isn't bad either. But man are they having problems with the NEW E-Class(W211)! I also think that E-Class seems a little small for my tastes. I think the trunk is too short, and I don't like the rear tail-lights either.

I have had Mercedes cars for over 45 years.. And I am sad to say that the name is about all really left the the Quality cars they once were...

In all truth they do not hold a candle to Honda today as far as quality. They are far behind in durability.. and every Honda owner can expect far more trouble free miles than Mercedes owners can.. We have a Honda that has near 300000 trouble free miles on it.. And the Mercedes 124 has had the price of the Honda spent trying to keep it on the road.. Really kind of sad..

I have a number of friends that have 124 cars and we have all had the same problems so its not just one car.. What is really sad is that several of them have gone to newer Mercedes and they are still poor quality and service at the dealers has gone down hill.. Many dealers now have a Mercedes trained person over seeing several people just hired off the street to work on them.. The quality of the work is far below that of even many small car shops.. Several have come back from the Mercedes dealer with more damaged things from poor work causing more problems .. A friend just had a water pump on a 123 coupe replaced.. had to buy new wiring because all the connectiors were broken by just prying them off the sensors instead of taking the time to remove them right.. Total cost of water pump replacement after fixing all the damage caused by having it done at the dealer was just over 1800 d0llars.. I do wonder how long they can run on just their name???

Ken

Ken, I agree with you. After owning a 1999 ML320, I am reverting to the 80's models. Believe me, you do not want to own a ML off warranty, you will forever curse MB. DslBnz, what problems are they having with the new E-Class? How's the quality of the 90-93 300D 2.5 Turbo's?

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85 300CD Signal Red/Tan sold
83 300D Manganese Brown 109K
97 E420 Midnight Blue 197K sold
98 BMW 328i Vert White 100K, sold
95 BMW 525i White 125K, sold
93 BMW 525iT Red 193K, sold
95 E320 Green Wagon 125K, sold
94 E320 White 127K, sold
85 300SD 156K Grey (Annie), sold
84 300D Lapis Blue 170K (Judy), sold
99 ML 320 Black (lease), 1998 C230 White (lease)
00 Honda S2000 Red (lease)
86 Mercedes 300E (sold)
84 Porsche 911 Red (sold), 1965 Porsche 911 White (sold)

Word from inside the factory that makes the ML is that as soon as the Germans left, manufacturing reverted instantly to classis US auto manufacturing -- if nothing falls of before it gets on the shipping truck, the vehicle is perfect. No QA, no QC, just shove them out the door.

I agree about the Japanese cars -- the only thing Benz has that is better is more metal and beefier suspension parts, and that is also appearantly going fast.

They, and BMW, will not last long if they don't change their ways -- consumers are fickle to start with, and poor quality and high price in tight economic times has sunk many a company -- DB and BMW aren't GM....

Peter

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1972 220D ?? miles
1988 300E 200,012
1987 300D Turbo killed 9/25/07, 275,000 miles
1985 Volvo 740 GLE Turobodiesel 218,000
1972 280 SE 4.5 165, 000 - It runs!

I don't know, but I read somewhere that a lot of electrical gremlins are showing up within the 1st year of production. I believe it shares all the problems it has with the current S-Class. For example.

Air-Matic. Some of these cars are coming back to the dealer because the suspension fails. Look, this was a bad idea for the 6.3, why did they come back with it, anyway?

Brake-By-Wire. If one isn't used to it, you will end up locking your brakes all the time. Plus, what happens when the alternator goes? Do they have a backup system? Or do you have no brakes?

COMAND system. Need I say more? That sums up the problems right there.

Seat heaters. Sometimes the stuffing seeps out of the seems of the seats and requires seat replacement.

Those are just a few, but I'm sure there are many more.
The electrical gremlins I'm talking about are codes like
EXTERIOR LIGHT FAILURE(when all lights are functioning. Weird)
CHECK ENGINE ELECTRONICS(When there is nothing wrong, yes it still comes on even today)
ABS failure(comes on with ESP sometimes)
ESP failure(comes on with ABS sometimes)
BAS failure(electrical quirk)
etc., etc.

Remember, the first year of production is uaually the worst. Benz has to work out the bugs. But that's a lot of pesticide they're going to need to take car of the W211 E-Class.

I'll stick with my W210, W124, and W126's. The 'star' is forever lost, apparently.

* Mercedes is getting rid of the sport grill they used to have on their coupe/convertible models. Take a look at the 2005? SLK. The only thing made of chrome is the MB Star(like a cheap SLR). It looks like a Chrysler, not an MB. The CROSSFIRE even looks better!!

I have no idea what new car I would buy nowadays, though. Call me oldschool, but I hate ALL the new cars with integrated body colored bumpers, and montone paintjobs. Without a single hint of chrome or class. I guess I will always drive old Benzes till the day I die.

I'm starting to feel the same way. I refuse to own a Japanese car under any and all circumstances, but it seems like M-B's fallen far and hard from their previous reputation (it sounds like the 123 and the 126 mark the pinnacle of M-B design)...how's the VW TDi for reliability?

I might buy a nre truck to complement my F-250 someday, but I don't think I'd want to buy a new car...OTOH, I like owning a vehicle that I can work on myself should the need arise (one reason why I stick to diesels)...

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2001 VW Jetta TDI, 5 speed, daily driver
1991 Ford F-350, work in progress
1984 Ford F-250 4x4, 6.9l turbo diesel, 5 speed manual
Previous oilburners: 1980 IH Scout, 1984 E-350, 1985 M-B 300D, 1979 M-B 300SD, 1983 M-B 300D
Spark-free since 1999

The 300D 2.5 litre is a great engine. The reliability is supposed to be exceptional. Although I have seen a few go out of time. It seems to be common around the 300D 2.5.