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  #1  
Old 08-11-2009, 11:54 PM
rcounts's Avatar
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Calling ForcedInduction and CarTek

Hey guys, one more quick question on a turbo for my 4.3 liter diesel Jeep project...

I found a turbo on Craigslist that I think might work well and wanted and opinion from the two of you.

It is a T3/T4 hybrid. The hot side is stamped AR .63 and has a standard T3 mount, a standard 5 bolt wastegate assembly, and a 2-bolt output flange setup similar to the 3 bolt setup on the stock Garrett on our OM617s.
The compressor side is stamped M11 AR .60. The inlet and outlet have removable 2-bolt flanges, and the open end of the output flange is about 2-1/2"-3", but without the flange the outlet opening is only about 2". The inlet, with the removable flange taken off is only about 1-1/2" diameter, but with the flange bolted in place the inlet opening is around 2" diameter.

How would this work for the 4.3 liter diesel? The shaft has almost no play in any direction, it spins smoothly, and the leading edges of the compressor blades look good, with only a tiny amount of erosion. The kid selling it only wants $85 and it is 100% complete except for the wastegate pressure pot/acuator. What do you think?

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1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown
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  #2  
Old 08-12-2009, 12:43 AM
Eric's Avatar
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youll have to ask lance on superturbodiesel, he isnt here anymore
wish i could help
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  #3  
Old 08-12-2009, 02:11 AM
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we use those alot on honda 4cylinders sounds like the ebay special. check the cold side for oil to make sure the oil seals arent blown. Also, ask if it has a reducer to limit the oil pressure some of those turbos blow seals real easy with too much pressure. other than that, they spool pretty quick on gasoline engines not so sure about diesel. known to make 300-350 hp on a 4cylinder honda engine. Probibally a TD04 turbo.
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  #4  
Old 08-12-2009, 09:38 AM
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rcounts, empty your mailbox...
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  #5  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarTek View Post
rcounts, empty your mailbox...
Done - and sorry 'bout misspelling your handle...
__________________
1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown
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  #6  
Old 08-12-2009, 12:09 PM
rcounts's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cervan View Post
we use those alot on honda 4cylinders sounds like the ebay special. check the cold side for oil to make sure the oil seals arent blown. Also, ask if it has a reducer to limit the oil pressure some of those turbos blow seals real easy with too much pressure. other than that, they spool pretty quick on gasoline engines not so sure about diesel. known to make 300-350 hp on a 4cylinder honda engine. Probibally a TD04 turbo.
Well, this one came off a 2.3 liter Ford. There was one on eBay that Forced and KarTek were recommending in another thread, and it listed the 2.3 liter Ford as one of its applications. The only differences seems to be that
1) this one is a .60 AR - the ebay one was .50 AR
2) This one has bolt-on inlet and outlet pipes instead of having fixed pipes that you attach your hoses to (like th one on eBay).
3) the inlet and outlet on this one *may* be smaller than the one on eBay. That one supposedly has a 2" inlet and 3" outlet - but I'm not sure if that is an actual measure of the oriface or if it is a measure of the pipe flange where the hoses attach.

The guy selling it claims to know quite a bit about turbos, and he claims that the .60 AR cold side will actually be better for my application (4.3 liter) than the .50 AR turbo on eBay that KarTek and Forced Indiction were recommending. That's why I wanted to pose the question here - to get the opinion of some folks who know turbos a lot better than I do.

BTW, both the hot and cold sides on this turbo seem completely free of excess oil...
__________________
1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown

Last edited by rcounts; 08-12-2009 at 12:15 PM.
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  #7  
Old 08-12-2009, 01:01 PM
KarTek's Avatar
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For a given turbo, a .50 A/R turbine will spool faster but have more back pressure/higher potential EGT's than the .60...
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Benz Fleet:
1968 UNIMOG 404.114
1998 E300
2008 E63


Non-Benz Fleet:
1992 Aerostar
1993 MR2
2000 F250
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  #8  
Old 08-12-2009, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarTek View Post
For a given turbo, a .50 A/R turbine will spool faster but have more back pressure/higher potential EGT's than the .60...
OK, now I'm REALLY confused. I thought it was the compressor (cold) side that was a .50 AR (on the ebay turbo you guys recommended) - vs. .60 AR (on the one I'm looking at locally) - not the turbine (hot) side. I thought both of them had a hot side turbine with an AR of .63
__________________
1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown
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  #9  
Old 08-12-2009, 03:54 PM
rcounts's Avatar
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OK, I did some calculations using an assumption of VE = .8 and intake air temp = 190*F

I come up with a PR of 1.47 for 7 PSI and 1.68 for 10 PSI

Calculated CFM as 274 @ 3600 RPMs (HP peak) and 121 @ 1600 RPMs (torque peak)

Assuming it will build 8 - 10 PSI at 1600, as well as at 3600 RPMs, I came up with air flows of
22.6 lbs/min @ 3600 RPMs and 9.2 lbs/min @ 1600 RPMs for 10 PSI
and
20.6 lbs/min @ 3600 RPMs and 9.1 lbs/min @ 1600 RPMs for 8 PSI

Plotting those four PR vs. lbs/min points on the map for the T3 60 trim (I'm pretty sure that is what the turbo this guy is selling is since it is the stock unit off a 2.3 liter turbo mustang) looks like the attached.

That's my first stab at it, and to my uneducated eye, it doesn't look too bad. The points are all in the 65-70 efficiency range, and the area between them takes up a big chunk of the 74% peak efficiency range of the map. Where am I going wrong here?
Attached Thumbnails
Calling ForcedInduction and CarTek-fig4.jpg  
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1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown
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  #10  
Old 08-12-2009, 04:48 PM
KarTek's Avatar
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For peak HP, I originally got an 18.11 and 1.73 from my spreadsheet which would be PERFECT for the map and turbo you show here. It hits right in the center of the 74% island.

For the rest of the range it also looks like a good match.
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Benz Fleet:
1968 UNIMOG 404.114
1998 E300
2008 E63


Non-Benz Fleet:
1992 Aerostar
1993 MR2
2000 F250
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  #11  
Old 08-12-2009, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarTek View Post
For peak HP, I originally got an 18.11 and 1.73 from my spreadsheet which would be PERFECT for the map and turbo you show here. It hits right in the center of the 74% island.

For the rest of the range it also looks like a good match.
OK, so now I just have to confirm that this map is for the turbo I'm looking at - that it is a T3 60 trim - would that be what the "60" on the compressor scroll (along with "M11") mean?
__________________
1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown
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  #12  
Old 08-12-2009, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcounts View Post
OK, so now I just have to confirm that this map is for the turbo I'm looking at - that it is a T3 60 trim - would that be what the "60" on the compressor scroll (along with "M11") mean?
More than likely its a 60 trim but you'd need to measure to be sure without further data.....

There is a t4 in use on that other forum someone else mentioned.......
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  #13  
Old 08-12-2009, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by winmutt View Post
More than likely its a 60 trim but you'd need to measure to be sure without further data.....

There is a t4 in use on that other forum someone else mentioned.......
Well, I've also found references on the internet to the stock turbo on the 2.3 liter SVO Fords (and Merkur for that matter) being a T3 60 trim - and that is what the guy says this turbo is off of...

At this point I think I'm about ready to jump on it - at $85 and just the tiniest amount of play on the turbine side of the shaft, I think its a worthwhile deal...
__________________
1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-13-2009, 01:31 AM
KarTek's Avatar
<- Ryuko of Kill La Kill
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bahama/Eno Twp, NC
Posts: 3,258
I think I have the same turbo sitting in a box at home. If you had a picture, I could confirm it. I think mine came off a T-bird turbo coupe.

It has a little play side-to-side (radial) and that's OK. Axial=bad...
__________________
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Benz Fleet:
1968 UNIMOG 404.114
1998 E300
2008 E63


Non-Benz Fleet:
1992 Aerostar
1993 MR2
2000 F250
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  #15  
Old 08-13-2009, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarTek View Post
I think I have the same turbo sitting in a box at home. If you had a picture, I could confirm it. I think mine came off a T-bird turbo coupe.

It has a little play side-to-side (radial) and that's OK. Axial=bad...
Yeah that should be the same turbo KarTek - why don't you sell me yours? Then I'll know what I'm getting...

Just to make sure I understand you, you're saying it is OK for the end of the shaft to move up and down a little (perpendicular to the shaft's axis of rotation), but it shouldn't move in and out (paralell to the shaft's axis of rotation), right?

Winmutt, as I understand it, I would need to measure the outer diameter of the compressor wheel (exducer?) and the diameter of the part that sits just inside the inlet (inducer?) and divide the smaller by the larger to get the trim - correct? So if this turbo has an inducer of 1.5" and a .60 trim, it should have an exducer diameter of 2.5" (1.5/2.6=.60), correct?

__________________
1984 300 Coupe TurboDiesel
Silver blue paint over navy blue interior
2nd owner & 2nd engine in an otherwise
99% original unmolested car
~210k miles on the clock

1986 Ford F250 4x4 Supercab
Charcoal & blue two tone paint over burgundy interior
Banks turbo, DRW, ZF-5 & SMF conversion
152k on the clock - actual mileage unknown

Last edited by rcounts; 08-13-2009 at 04:29 PM.
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