617 performance cams - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

panZZer · #1 12-20-2010, 06:46 PM

Delivery valve posted this in the regular forum:
At the beginning of this year I got in contact with Geoff Bardal at Colt Cams in Aldergrove, British Columbia Canada. I was led to his company through the Volkswagen TDI circle in which he makes a performance TDI profile that people have had good reviews on. He also has done thousands of profiles on various gas and diesel applications and has also done extensive work on the Cummins 5.9L diesel.

I called him to price out a profile for my own TDI. While on the phone, I asked him about a performance profile for the OM617.95x and said he has one that he did back in the 1990’s in which his customer was happy. He has not done one recently, but is experienced in the OM61x since has been to regrind or repaired several to factory specs.

After a little discussion of varying applications the 617 is being used in our circle, he thinks there is a lot of capacity to get more performance out of the 617 cam, even more so then his earlier profile.

He is very interested in the working with 617 folks to create custom grind for each custom use. He offered me for about $340 shipped, a custom grind that he will work with me to get it right, provided that I get him a cam to regrind. I think this a great idea but unfortunately for my engine, I still want to make other mods i.e. different turbo and IP mod.

However, I do think it is important to get some R&D in and if somebody who is further along then I am or is looking to improve on the stock setup, should contact him or even Delta and get a project going. The more profiles available, the better for all of us.

http://www.coltcams.com/

Colt Cams Inc.
2325 264th street
Aldergrove BC V4W 2L5
Canada

Phone: 604-856-3571
Fax: 604-856-3572

And im wondering where could someone get blanks--You gotta have more material for more lift-Not regrinding a used cam-You could only play with the ramps that way

SirNik84 · #2 12-20-2010, 07:09 PM

I know in the old days of stroking engines they would use stock cranks and weld extra steel onto one side and then regrind the crank so that the stroke would be longer. I don't see why a custom cam shop could not do the same with a cam lobe.

iwrock · #3 12-20-2010, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirNik84

I know in the old days of stroking engines they would use stock cranks and weld extra steel onto one side and then regrind the crank so that the stroke would be longer. I don't see why a custom cam shop could not do the same with a cam lobe.

You better jump on this.

Doktor Bert · #4 12-20-2010, 07:30 PM

In my opinion, the performance improvement from the camshaft grind alone will be marginal.

ForcedInduction · #5 01-04-2011, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doktor Bert

In my opinion, the performance improvement from the camshaft grind alone will be marginal.

MB got an extra 15hp from increasing the valve lift in 1980. I see no reason to believe adding more lift and/or duration wouldn't increase volumetric efficiency a little further, especially when used with increased injection quantities. Every little bit helps on a uniflow 2valve engine.

DeliveryValve · #6 12-20-2010, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panZZer

...

And im wondering where could someone get blanks--You gotta have more material for more lift-Not regrinding a used cam-You could only play with the ramps that way

I posted this answer here in the original thread also.

OM617 (non turbo) cam profile specs, piston height specs etc

A cam is basically a bump on a circle. When the follower is siding on the circle, it is at zero lift. As the cam rotates, the follower goes over the bump positive lift is created. When you regrind a used cam, you make the circle smaller so the bump would have a higher lift. The valves are then adjusted to take up the slack from making the circle smaller. But there is a cut off point to how much it can be adjusted and custom adjusters may have to be created.

Lift is just one aspect of a few aspects to consider in cam grinding, the art is to find the right amount to make the engine happy. Some other aspects to consider are lob separation, overlap, duration and lobe centerline.

Of course IF your engine calls for a much higher lift, then a blank cam maybe in order. But you have to remember with the higher the lift, it may also entail having a reliefs cut in the pistons from keeping the valves from hitting them.

You might want to talk to Geoff in person, he is very approachable and will talk to you through on what he can do with a used cam that's not worn.

panZZer · #7 12-20-2010, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeliveryValve

I posted this answer here in the original thread also.

OM617 (non turbo) cam profile specs, piston height specs etc

A cam is basically a bump on a circle. When the follower is siding on the circle, it is at zero lift. As the cam rotates, the follower goes over the bump positive lift is created. When you regrind a used cam, you make the circle smaller so the bump would have a higher lift. The valves are then adjusted to take up the slack from making the circle smaller. But there is a cut off point to how much it can be adjusted and custom adjusters may have to be created.

Lift is just one aspect of a few aspects to consider in cam grinding, the art is to find the right amount to make the engine happy. Some other aspects to consider are lob separation, overlap, duration and lobe centerline.

Of course IF your engine calls for a much higher lift, then a blank cam maybe in order. But you have to remember with the higher the lift, it may also entail having a reliefs cut in the pistons from keeping the valves from hitting them.

You might want to talk to Geoff in person, he is very approachable and will talk to you through on what he can do with a used cam that's not worn.

I know they go hand in hand but im intrested in enhancing the torque mainly which is what i thought most everyone went by before i had any experience with the high speed automotive diesels- which is another animal from the norm.

MTUpower · #8 01-04-2011, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panZZer

And im wondering where could someone get blanks--You gotta have more material for more lift-Not regrinding a used cam-You could only play with the ramps that way

The yards here have plenty of used cams. How many do you need and what price are you willing to pay?

panZZer · #9 01-04-2011, 04:29 PM

I'de rather start with a new --HARDENED blank. I wonder where metric's suppliers gets theirs??

Stretch · #10 01-05-2011, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panZZer

I'de rather start with a new --HARDENED blank. I wonder where metric's suppliers gets theirs??

I guess they don't have hardened blanks as that would be
1) more costly to machine
2) most hardening processes are surface processes which means you'd be removing the expensive treatment.

I think you might be better off getting a specification for the steel purity and finding out where they are cast... I know that Febi make cams but I don't know who actually makes them. I guess a custom cam shop would be a good place to start - though I guess they will be CNC boys rather than people who cast.

panZZer · #11 01-05-2011, 03:28 PM

I thought it was mentioned here that all cams past 80 on US turbo models had hardened cams.

Stretch · #12 01-06-2011, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panZZer

I thought it was mentioned here that all cams past 80 on US turbo models had hardened cams.

I have no doubt that that is true - all I'm saying is that it is unlikely that the blank is hardened before it is machined to shape. I think it is most likely that the hardening process used on something like a camshaft is a surface hardening process that is applied once the cam has been made to the desired shape / profile.

So asking people for a hardened blank might cause some confusion - that's all.

Stretch · #13 01-08-2011, 03:43 AM

*****y *****y

I'm sure everyone who has contributed to this thread has done so with the best intentions - there is no reason to be rude.

Apparently it depends on the material - cast iron or steel:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camshaft

Also - I guess - dropping cast iron is more likely to result in a break because of the HCP structure

Stretch · #14 01-08-2011, 05:01 AM

If you go to www.febi.com and fill in the data for a OM617 engine you see that there are 3 power options listed:-

59(80)
65(88)
92(125) which is the turbo

I don't know how these power ratings compare with cam profile though. Febi state you need the same part (01307 Febi P/N) for both the 59(80) and 65(88) powered engines. But that's just Febi.

I'm off to the dealer on Wednesday for a fact finding mission - I'll see what I can unearth for the standard cams.

If you want to see more information about a dealer sourced non-turbo Euro cam have a look here:-

OM617 (non turbo) cam profile specs, piston height specs etc

Where I have measured it - objective rather than subjective.

layback40 · #15 01-08-2011, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Army

If you go to www.febi.com and fill in the data for a OM617 engine you see that there are 3 power options listed:-

59(80)
65(88)
92(125) which is the turbo

I don't know how these power ratings compare with cam profile though. Febi state you need the same part (01307 Febi P/N) for both the 59(80) and 65(88) powered engines. But that's just Febi.

I'm off to the dealer on Wednesday for a fact finding mission - I'll see what I can unearth for the standard cams.

If you want to see more information about a dealer sourced non-turbo Euro cam have a look here:-

OM617 (non turbo) cam profile specs, piston height specs etc

Where I have measured it - objective rather than subjective.

Here in Ozz,
All 617's were N/A.
Up to about 1979~80 they were real gutless. The motors were supposed to have a capacity of about 3005cc. Many at the time said they were just a 240 with an extra piston added. They were easy to pic as they had hard lines that sort of had a S bend in their shape and the bottom radiator hose came up very high on the motor. I have seen many of this type of motor in pic of turbo motors on here and a N/A..
Then they came out with the update motor. Most Australian delivery after mid 1979 had them. It was quite different to the previous motor. It was reported as being a complete redesign. It was 2997cc & had more power. I think it is the 88hp one you mention. My old 1980 300D is one of them. In 1981 when I purchased it, I was careful to make sure it was an update. You could easily tell the difference when you drove them.
Towards the end of the run, there was another update to the motor. I dont know the details, it wasnt significant & may have only been a tweak to the IP. My 84 is one of these. The way you could pick them is they had the same front guards & headlights as a 280E. It was said at the time that MB was using up the left over 123 bits at the end of the model run.

So it could be said that there are 3 different 617 N/A motors. Its easy to tell a first generation from a second generation by the IP hard lines & location of the lower hose connection. The change from second gen to third is harder to tell on the motor appearance.