Good to see you here too!

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1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

There will always be "the factory did it right" people and they will never except that anyone else can do it differant and have it work well.

That said I did document my build on this forum so anyone who wants to look into building a 616 turbo can see what I have done. I have also posted hill climb data pre turbo and post turbo. As well as compared it to a stock 300 turbo. So the numbers speak for themselves.

As far as long life, think this is more function of how it is driven. Drive it like a mad man and life will be shorter. Let the egts get to high, melt pistons. Watch egts and let the engine live. Before adding a turbo I saw egts go way up 1400 or so for short amounts of time, that is really pushing it. Kind of surprised no meltdowns happened. With turbo, 1000 is about as high as it goes.

I did not want a 617 because of the added wieght. Handling just suffers too much, as I like to have some fun in the mountains with it, and a 300d is more of a highway cruiser, so the better balance of a 240 gives much better handling. I have both so have a real comparision.

I am not saying this is for everyone but it does have it's place and can work very well.

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1977 240D turbo

I can tell, having worked for the factory and Engineering in the Big 3 for 27 years, including the Chysler-Daimler merger, that the factory often knows what is right and doesn't do it, because the finance weenies are pressing for more cost savings. The catastrophic failures of the Chrysler A-604 transmission were the direct result of a decision by Engineering VPs to cuts costs and cheapen the product. Most of those transaxles didn't last past 42,000 miles and the warranty was 50,000. So lots of replacement pump kits were made to address that issue and sent to dealers.

Jurgen Schrempp did the same with the MB subsidiary over the objections of certain technical guys, and later, to clean up his warranty mess, they kicked him upstairs and promoted Prof Dr Hubbert to run the technical show. Immediate improvement because the dude was a tyrant when it came to quality. He would listen to bad news but wanted solutions.

Fortunately the 616-617 engines were born before that nonsense became the "corporate way."

I think persomnally that the issues here are these:

If you don't like your 240D engine the way it is, you can change it.

How much you change it and what you do to it is your choice and depends on what parts you add following your own studies.

It's real easy to compare all parts in 240 300D NA and 300D Turbo and change as needed.

Or just replace a 616 with a 617 or a turbo 2.5 from a 190D

Now that there is 30 years from the last W123 in the US, if you are very enamored of the OM616 Indian turbo, buy some selected parts and stick them in your now antique car.

But if you REALLY want to be honest, start collecting data and report in detail on what you did and what the results were.

THEN WE WILL ALL BENEFIT.

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Strelnik
Invest in America: Buy a Congressman!

1950 170SD
1951 Citroen 11BN
1953 Citroen 11BNF limo
1953 220a project
1959 180D
1960 190D
1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr
1983 240D daily driver
1983 380SL
1990 350SDL daily driver alt
3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5
3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6

Hi there!
I've been running my Turbo 240D for something like 12 years now, and I have to say that adding the turbo was the best thing I ever did to the car. Check out my posts, or feel free to pm me if you have questions.
Cheers
Chris

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1983 Turbocharged 240D
1982 Mazda RX-7
1974 Mazda Rotary Pickup Converted to an EV

By the way this original post was for a fellow asking about differant pre chambers.

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1977 240D turbo

A smoltzed up OM616 sounds like a great idea, especially if you can drive the overall weight of a W123 below 3,000 pounds. I've seen ALOT mod's to these cars (W123) and so far I have not seen any melt downs, anything explode, or all the so-called doom-and-gloom. Old cars do break down. As for those folks demanding some sort of laboratory-like proof with millions of miles of documented history, you got'z to be kidding me. If a 30+ year old car runs fine with a particular mod over the course of a few years or so, it is probably a winner. Plus, all the mods that I have seen so far are far, far from being new or innovative. Hot rodders and tinkers have been doing the same exact thing to other models a long time ago. Really nothing new, so not sure why the "horror" at folks building a better mousetrap.

I'm contemplating it. I've been researching original kits offered back then. I recently found an article about the epa testing a 220D with a turbo. They were hoping for better emissions, but it was just faster.

It brings up an interesting subject. About the same time the government cracked down on mercedes, they came out wit a turbo.

In regard to not having oil coolers, I was thinking of water injection.

Problem is the pneumatic governor. The throttle valve has to be behind the turbo so it doesn't run away.

I've been wondering if any newer 240D pumps will work. I'm curious what a 123 euro pump looks like.

It is an easier approach than a swap. I looked at a 617 swap and you have to build a manifold anyways.

I believe water injection is a plus for the WVO crowd. I've used it and now I need to re-locate my pump since I'm installing my W115 longrunner intake (my Devil's Own pump sat on top of a mod'd intake manifold).

Good luck on finding a turbo kit for the OM616. Ive been looking for a while, but then again one will pop on E B A Y by the time this post hits the airways ... lol

It's popular in big rigs for keeping egt down. And yeah cleaning. I think it's just great in general. I'm contemplating having it setup so if I run out of water boost will drop off. I think that's why manufacturers don't do it. That and the necessity to add water.

I'm actually 615. I read some sort of test in the 70's, and for some reason they had to take the governor out of the pump so it would run forever.

I need to study up more on what mine do. I thought vacuum was for idle but maybe I have it backwards. Lol.

Shameless plug,
I've been making my turbo adapter plate to put the 5cyl 617 turbo exhaust manifold on the 616 for years. Just search for "Mercedes turbo adapter plate" on fleabay. That's the hard part. Everything else can be sourced of a 300 at a junk yard. Its not a conversion for the faint of heart, but once you have the manifold on there, everything is pretty much plug and play.
Cheers!
Chris

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1983 Turbocharged 240D
1982 Mazda RX-7
1974 Mazda Rotary Pickup Converted to an EV

Hi Lucas,
I actually ran a vacuum type IP from a 615 on my 616 for a bit (pre turbo) as an experiment. It was a drop in swap, so I'm assuming you could run the centrifugal 616 IP on the 615. This would be a much better solution than throttling the airflow from the turbo in order to make the vacuum IP work.
If you want do get into the nitty gritty as to why I believe this to be the case, we can start a new thread to discuss it rather than hijacking this one.
Cheers!
Chris

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1983 Turbocharged 240D
1982 Mazda RX-7
1974 Mazda Rotary Pickup Converted to an EV

I am more than open to that idea. I've been attempting to understand. I've been wondering if a euro 123 240D has an M-pump, and how it is governed.

I know I'm late to the party but there is a problem with installing the centrifugal pumps (MRSF and MW) on early engines. The early OM615 and OM616 engines use a pneumatic pump with a separate oil supply. The oil in MRSF and MW pumps is supplied by the engine. Early engines don't have a provision for supplying oil to the MRSF or MW pump.

The MRSF (euro) pump gets its oil from the IP drive shaft. Later OM615 (only euro) and OM616 (W123) engines have this provision. To convert an early pneumatic pump engine to this oiling system requires the later style (type 3) timing device, IP driveshaft and block bushings. The type 3 IP driveshaft has drillings to supply oil through the IP shaft nose. The rear IP shaft bushing in the block has a slot that is part of this oiling system. The front bushing is also different due to an inside diameter change designed to prevent the accidental swapping of parts between types. Despite these changes the block drillings are the same between early and late engines.

The MW pump gets oil from an external oil line that connects to a tap on the block. All OM61x engines have a drilling in this location. This drilling is for the oil gallery that supplies the IP driveshaft etc. However only later (W123) OM615 (euro) and OM616 (US and euro) engines are machined for a banjo bolt. The earlier blocks are plugged. It may be possible to drill the plug and add a banjo bolt but it would be near impossible with the engine in the car. Another solution would be to get the oil supply from the oil sender line.

Unfortunately however, the MW pump will not physically clear the large threaded water jacket plugs on the early blocks. The MRSF will clear them. I have one OM615 factory replacement engine that has the later style (W123) cup plugs but every other W115 OM615/616 I've seen has the large threaded plugs. Grinding the plug may solve the problem but these plugs are gasketed with a straight thread rather than a pipe thread. If the thickness of the head is reduced too much it may leak. Another issue with the MW pump is the mounting angle. Because of its large size its rotated away from the block and on a W115 that gets tight. The factory used the MW in a W115 on the OM617 so it should be possible. Consider though that the OM617 in the W115 chassis is positioned differently.

So basically you can swap any one of the three pumps onto a LATE engine ONLY. When using the M pneumatic or the MRSF the external oil supply for the MW has to be plugged and you're done. All late engines have an IP shaft that will supply oil for an MRSF even if the engine was originally equipped with an MW. If there is any doubt about oil supply remove the vacuum pump and look for a BOLT attaching the timing device. If your timing device is retained by a nut it's either a type one or two and it WILL NOT supply oil to the MRSF.

To convert an early engine you will need a late style IP drive setup to supply oil to the MRSF or an external oil line for an MW. If using an MW block clearance will be an issue unless you're fortunate enough to have cup plugs in the water jacket. If you go with an MRSF and swap in a used IP driveshaft get it from a late (W123)OM616. Be sure to get the oil pump driveshaft since they have run together and need to be replaced as a pair. In fact, the factory won't supply them as separate parts. The NA OM617 uses the same setup but that engine uses a heavy duty oil pump which causes the oil pump drive shaft gears and bushing to wear faster. The ones I've pulled have shown a lot of wear as compared with OM616 engines with similar mileage. Cooljay had a post about this very problem. OM617 Turbo engines have a chain drive oil pump so they don't have an oil pump driveshaft.

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1969 220D 5 Speed (OM616)
1983 240D 4 Speed
1985 300D Auto 376K
1985 300D Auto 275K

Hi VT22D!
Thank You for pointing out all of the subtle design changes between the 615 and the 616. I've never torn down a 615, so I don't know the differences that intimately. I learned some stuff today! I my case I was going putting a vacuum style pump on a latter 616, so it was easy. I just had to plug off the oil supply port on the block. I'm still running the 615 intake on my turbo 616 because it clears the turbo with no modification. I could have cut down the log style 617 intake and welded a cap over the end, but the 615 manifold was an easy, elegant solution. I hope the OP doesn't get discouraged. Most problems are solvable, it just a question of determination and money!
Cheers!
Chris

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1983 Turbocharged 240D
1982 Mazda RX-7
1974 Mazda Rotary Pickup Converted to an EV

That was one of my original questions also, if a later style IP could be swapped into an older 616 with the vacuum stuff it has

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1982 300D Turbodiesel, daily driver. Mods so far: Fram 8038 paper filter, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 (front) rotors/calipers, boost turned up to 12lbs, non-egr manifolds, water/methanol injection, 4-speed manual
1980 300SD Turbodiesel, project car, nearly ready to hit the street

1974 240D, New paint