Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Mercedes-Benz Performance Paddock

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-10-2002, 04:24 PM
Hammer Wagon's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 103
Question Spring has sprung, suspension advice please

As I've posted before my car (AMG 300TE 6.0) has been slowly eating its' fenders. Since I've been getting alot more seat time lately I feel the wheels hitting the fenders on almost any uneven surface.

The previous owner contacted his shop and they couldn't precisely recall what sort of springs they mounted 2 years back. One of the mechanics thought he remembered mounting a set of 560 springs and cutting the coil to lower the car . When I made contact they said the old boss is retired and they can't recall, but they wouldn't have "cut" the spring, "maybe" they used AMG springs. The springs were $150 for both front springs based on the records so this seems unlikely to me.

It is certainly springtime by all accounts.

I had originally suspected engine weight as the culprit, but I was told that the M117 engine, being all aluminum, would not have a significant weight penalty over the cast iron 6 cylinder. I assume this is why certain springs seem to be interchangable between 6 and 8 cyl 124 models (?)

I've read most all the threads comparing H&R springs and Sportline, but I would appreciate any additional views regarding the ride, ride height and any other important points to ponder including engine weight if i am mistaken and/or any other spring choices (AMG??). I like the lowered ride height, although a few additional mm's might save my Hoover Airdam from ingesting every driveway in its' path.

I currentlyhave the #1 (lowest) spring pad in the front and I will be running 17x8 inch ET28 AMG Aero wheels 215/45 front, 235/45 rear or possibly 225/45 all around. The fenders will be slightly rolled as they were before the tires took to lunching on them.

I have seen some conclusions about which struts/ shocks work best with which springs- I would prefer to go Bilstein (sport or HD)
The car being a wagon it also has the rear self leveling. It is currently in-op and I am debating either getting the system up and running or attempting the surgery to mount rear shocks in its place. No Home Depot trips in this wagon, but I had seen some discussion of the handling benefits conveyed by the self-leveling that has confused me some more.

Thanks!

My wagon. yeah, right!
Attached Thumbnails
Spring has sprung, suspension advice please-456-estate.jpg  
__________________
Dave

AMG 300TE 6.0

E320 Cabrio

http://photos.yahoo.com/dshimano
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-10-2002, 06:53 PM
gsxr's Avatar
Unbanned...?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 8,017
Hi Dave,

Wow - interesting ride you have there. First, 17 x 8.0 ET28 is not the correct wheel for your car. You want ET38, which is what I have on my car (17x8 ET38). Also, with an 8.0-inch wheel, a 215 tire is too narrow. I have 225/45 and the wheel is wider than the tire sidewall. I wish I had gone with 235/45 like the tuner recommended (my bad). The ET28 wheels you have will stick the tire WAY out there and rub the fender. You could always install 500E fenders, which would cure the problem. Any offset more than 38 (i.e. ET40) will probably result in the wheel or tire rubbing the strut tube. ET36-38 should work fine up to 235/45 on an 8.0 wheel. Now if you go with a different wheel width, all of the above is out the window and you get to start again.

One other tip: Mercedes recommends a strut travel limiter be installed when mounting wide wheels. It limits how far the front suspension will compress. Your dealer should be able to dig up the info & part numbers, I have them somewhere (need to find them so I can install on my car too!

About the spring issue, sorry I don't have much to offer there... I'd try the regular Eibach or H&R's and see how they sit. Maybe even the OE Sportline springs.


Best regards,
__________________
Dave M.
Boise, ID

1997 E420 - 155kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 145kmi (Blondie)
1993 500E - 193kmi (Lollipop)
1992 400E - 189kmi (Stinky Dirty)
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-10-2002, 09:12 PM
Hammer Wagon's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 103
Hammer time

Thanks,

Since the car is essentially a Hammer wagon with a 16v 6.0 liter I was striving for originality in going for these wheels. 17x8 ET28 was the original size used on the AMG Hammer with 215/45 front and 235/45 rear. The fenders on my car are slightly flared and the lip is rolled (was rolled I should say) although not as much as the 500E. I did a side by side with my neighbors 89 300E and 95 E320 for comparison.

I was going with 225/45 for convenience sake at this point, taking the summer tires off my Audi; Audi is getting 235/45 all season shoes.

I may be off here but I believe the original Hammer was lowered 1.5 inches on either end. That said I am concerned that if the ET28 wheel will protrude from the wheelwell and I lower the car too much I will still get the rubbing problem (2 objects cannot occupy the same space...). Does it make more sense to raise the car with the spring pads if I have to, or to go with a taller spring (Sportline) to begin with?

I could always go back to 15 inch wheels, put a 300TD Turbo Diesel badge on her and really piss off Mustang owners.
__________________
Dave

AMG 300TE 6.0

E320 Cabrio

http://photos.yahoo.com/dshimano
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-11-2002, 12:18 AM
gsxr's Avatar
Unbanned...?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 8,017
Actually, taller springs and/or pads are a good idea. The only drawback is the car doesn't look as "lowered" and you may lose a bit of handling prowess. I love the idea of stock wheels and the TD badge! Heh-heh. But in the end it mostly depends on how YOU want the car to look, both in ride height and wheel appearance.


BTW, with all that "go" power you may want to check out brake upgrades, I started a thread over in the Performance Paddock on W124 brakes a couple weeks ago.


Good luck,
__________________
Dave M.
Boise, ID

1997 E420 - 155kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 145kmi (Blondie)
1993 500E - 193kmi (Lollipop)
1992 400E - 189kmi (Stinky Dirty)
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-20-2002, 09:38 PM
Mattman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Whilst my car is a W126 it does share some similarities. Check my www for some pics of the stance. I have H&R springs with Bilstein shocks on the front and self levelling on the rear. Retain the self levelling, it's worth it in the long run. Nothing better than having 4 people in the car and it still sits like it did unladen.

Matt.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-21-2002, 04:17 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: England
Posts: 1,841
Sorry to go off-topic, but Hammer Wagon, I've seen that Ferrari 550 Wagon, and have pics of it and other crazy wagons (Aston Martin DB5 Estate, anyone?) here:

http://www.maylane.demon.co.uk/goodwood/index2.htm

later!
__________________
190E's:
2.5-16v 1990 90,000m Astral Silver
2.0E 8v 1986 107,000m Black 2nd owner
http://www.maylane.demon.co.uk/190esmall.jpghttp://www.maylane.demon.co.uk/190esmall2.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-23-2002, 12:50 AM
Hammer Wagon's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 103
high tailing it

Thanks Mattman,

Very nice SEL.

I noticed that many cars with self leveling in the rear and lowering springs in the front tend to have a bit of a nose down look. Is this a function of having lowering springs in the front only, and would the self leveling even the car out with lowering springs in the rear?

I prefer the car to have an even stance, which is why I was considering bypassing the self leveling.

Pentoman;

Interesting to see the 456 wagon at Goodwood, i thought they were only done for the Sultan of Brunei, and he doesn't let his cars go easily.

http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/features/1999/February/199902_feature_thesu.xml?keywords=brunei

..and don't let anyone in England hear you calling a "Shooting Brake" a wagon.

http://supercars.ifn.cx/v8_shootingbrake/gallery.shtml
Attached Thumbnails
Spring has sprung, suspension advice please-aml-shooting-brake.jpg  
__________________
Dave

AMG 300TE 6.0

E320 Cabrio

http://photos.yahoo.com/dshimano
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-23-2002, 02:34 AM
Mattman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Hi Dave.

I have H&R springs front and rear. The self levelling retains the original height before lowering because that is what it is designed to do.

The self levelling can be adjusted though, unfortunately the dealer did not adjust mine when they installed the suspension. I am off to an independent in a couple of weeks to get a few things done, adjusting the rear lower will be one of them.

Matt.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-23-2002, 06:37 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Atlanta, GA USA
Posts: 281
Guys here are some links to my Wagon with Self leveling still in use. These are old pics with 17x7.5 with 215/45/17 tires I have since upgraded to 18 inch wheels and 225/40/18 tires and its sits very nicely.



http://smwelch.dns2go.com/~cardude/
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-23-2002, 06:45 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Atlanta, GA USA
Posts: 281
Here is a sample. I hope this works! And absolutely no scrubbing with the 17s or the 18x8. On a side note I have installed camber bushings in the rear for proper adjustment after lowering the rear with HR springs and 1 bump pads all around.


Cardude
Attached Thumbnails
Spring has sprung, suspension advice please-300terearpass.jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-23-2002, 12:29 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 2,633
I'm assuming that your front & rear spoilers are aggressive, so I would recommend 500E springs all around with a number #1 spring pad in front, and #2 or #3 in the rear. Also a 500E rear swaybar at 18mm might be bigger/thicker than what you have now.

As for front struts/shocks: If you don't mind a stiff ride, I'd go with SportLine or BilStein Sport struts. However, I think the early (1992) 500E front struts provide the best compromise between comfort and sport, esp. since they have built-in limiting springs.

I have had 16x8 ET 34 wheels on the wagon, and 215's up front did not rub, and 225 in the rear also did not rub.

However, IMHO, anything below ET35 is pushing it.

I now have 17x7.5 ET37 wheel with 225 rubber all around, and 16x7.5 ET41 wheels also with 225 rubber all around and no rubbing.

:-) neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-23-2002, 02:44 PM
Hammer Wagon's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 103
aggressive spoilers

Thanks.

The AMG front airdam is indeed very aggressive, the rear and side skirts are too but since the self leveling is stuck at half mast that hasn't been an issue yet. When I do a performance (AMG?) exhaust with twin tips I may want to keep the rear off the ground.

I prefer a stiff ride, as this will be more of a peformance car than a family car for me; however if my airdam will strike anything in its' path I may have to write off H&R's. As it is the airdam is curbed in many places.

I had the impression that the Sportline springs were not as low as the H&R, and were quite stiff, so I thought they might be a good compromise.

As for struts, if the Bilstein Sports are intended for lowered cars with a shorter "cycle" wouldn't that preclude using them with Sportline springs or are the Sportline springs still low enough to be a good match? I would think the 500E springs might be better matched with Bilstein HD???

My mind is stuck on Bilstein for 'perceived quality.' The lifetime guarantee may be to blame. I don't know who manufactures the 500E struts, the limiting aspect sound interesting, and I thought the Sportlines were Sachs Boge- The quality of the OE Sachs shocks in my Alfa Romeo made a swap to Konis de rigeuer, so I have preconceived (possibly mistaken) notions about these.

As for ET28, the Hammers were lowered and wore this size albeit with the fenders rolled. My fenders are slightly rolled; i think the spring/strut action is more to blame than the offset, although I'll soon find out. If Cardude runs 18x8 (awesome loking wagon Cardude!) without rubbing, I'm hoping to keep the 225/45 fronts. 215/45 doesn't fill an 8 inch wide wheel as well.

The photo shows the low front Airdam, chewed front fender and the overall stance of the car.

Always happy to have my misconceptions righted
Attached Thumbnails
Spring has sprung, suspension advice please-amg-test-dr-2.jpg  
__________________
Dave

AMG 300TE 6.0

E320 Cabrio

http://photos.yahoo.com/dshimano
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-23-2002, 03:09 PM
gsxr's Avatar
Unbanned...?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 8,017
Quote:
I currentlyhave the #1 (lowest) spring pad in the front and I will be running 17x8 inch ET28 AMG Aero wheels 215/45 front, 235/45 rear or possibly 225/45 all around. The fenders will be slightly rolled as they were before the tires took to lunching on them.
As for ET28, the Hammers were lowered and wore this size albeit with the fenders rolled. My fenders are slightly rolled; i think the spring/strut action is more to blame than the offset, although I'll soon find out. If Cardude runs 18x8 (awesome loking wagon Cardude!) without rubbing, I'm hoping to keep the 225/45 fronts. 215/45 doesn't fill an 8 inch wide wheel as well.

The only reason you would need a lower offset number (like ET28) is if you have clearance problems between the wheel/tire and strut/steering/brakes. Otherwise, you want the tire tucked in as much as possible. I have 17x8.0 ET38 wheels with 225/45 tires. They come close to the strut tube up front but don't touch. I had very little problems rubbing, but I did fold up the front fender lips, and now I have no problems. The 225 tires are narrower than the wheel so my next set of tires will be 235/45, which is what the Carat rep told me to use in the first place. I have no problems in the rear at all.

Also, as I mentioned before, if you use regular struts you may want to install the AMG travel limiter. There is a Mercedes service document that details how to roll the fender lips and also explains about the travel limiter, when installing wide AMG wheels. I don't know if this is required with the 500E struts (Neil says they have an internal limit, or spring?) or the Bilstein Sports. I'll try to find the document and turn it into a PDF, there's lots of good info on lowering & using wide wheels.

BTW - Bilstein Sports should work fine with Sportline springs, since those springs drop the car a good 1.0-1.25 inches.


Regards,
__________________
Dave M.
Boise, ID

1997 E420 - 155kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 145kmi (Blondie)
1993 500E - 193kmi (Lollipop)
1992 400E - 189kmi (Stinky Dirty)
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-23-2002, 04:31 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 2,633
If you are indeed going for a max. performance, setup, then I would do SportLine versions springs, struts, swaybar & bushings, AND control arm bushings.

The rear shocks & accummlator cannot handle SportLine rear springs, so have 500E rear springs and 500E rear swaybar with 500E swaybar bushings.

I had H&R's with Bilstein Sports in the front, and they didn't handle nearly as well the full SportLine setup up front and 500E rear spring & swaybar in the rear.

You'll like it.

:-) neil
1988 360TE AMG
1993 500E
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-23-2002, 05:07 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 2,633
Yes, I have had SportLine springs & Bilstein Sports up front. I didn't like them. The Bilstein's did not dampen the SportLine springs quick enough.

SportLine stuff is made by SACHS/BOGE.

With 1-bump pad in front and 3-bump in the rear, SportLine springs up front and 500E rear springs, the was fairly level.

:-) neil
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page