Torture - Page 10 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #**136** 10-23-2007, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bokonon

Because it is always who we have been, going all the way back to George Washington's command of the Continental Army in a period of dire emergency and ... yes ... facing an enemy that did not play by the same rules.

And we should also do it because it has always worked well for us in the previous conflicts we have fought.

-- Bokonon

IOW, my grandfather was a carpenter and so was my father. That profession worked well for them. Therefore, monkey see, monkey do, right?

For instance? Vietnam? Somalia? It has worked well in conventional situations. Not in unconventional warfare.

aklim · #**137** 10-23-2007, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I'm not asking anyone to excuse any enemy, just to note what is likely to happen under long established norms of human behavior. If you were a poor farmer and some foreign force invaded and your neighbors were clamoring for a force to oppose them, and tomorrow if not today, I seriously doubt you'd say, "Oh but wait neighbors, we must first sew uniforms so that we will abide by their rules of warfare."

Behaving in such a way as to insure a centuries long animosity from people for whom vengeance is like mother's milk is likely to result in "a higher likelihood of dead American soldiers." Doesn't sound preferable to me.

So just like taxes, if you have more money, you are taxed at a higher level. Therefore, if they cannot afford to follow the rules of warfare, they can be excused. We, since we can afford it, should have to pay more, right?

A lot more preferable than not living to have that century of animosity.

aklim · #**138** 10-23-2007, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

point is, it's human nature to use whatever you have at your disposal to defeat a more powerful foe. Not pretty but there it is.

So why can't we do the same? Why not have a "no holds barred" fight?

Gurkha · #**139** 10-23-2007, 10:18 PM

I am all for the no holds barred fight........ its already in a free for all situation anyways so no need to keep the charade.

cmac2012 · #**140** 10-23-2007, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So just like taxes, if you have more money, you are taxed at a higher level. Therefore, if they cannot afford to follow the rules of warfare, they can be excused. We, since we can afford it, should have to pay more, right?

A lot more preferable than not living to have that century of animosity.

If the enemy believe they have been hoodwinked, there is likely to be a fitful peace. We succeeded in post WW2 G and J largely because we behaved with a high general degree of honor, IMHO.

Expecting people to behave against normal human nature is not prudent.

cmac2012 · #**141** 10-23-2007, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So why can't we do the same? Why not have a "no holds barred" fight?

We used 'daisy cutter' bombs on Afg. We used depleted uranium munitions, missiles (drone fired frequently), and helicopters equipped with night vision goggles against Iraq. I'd say we're pretty close to being 'no holds barred' in our combat.

Palangi · #**142** 10-23-2007, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Expecting people to behave against normal human nature is not prudent.

Has it ever occurred to you that people have fought wars, pretty much all throughout history?

aklim · #**143** 10-23-2007, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

We succeeded in post WW2 G and J largely because we behaved with a high general degree of honor, IMHO.

You don't suppose that the Germans had other issues bothering them like Hitler doing stupid things?

aklim · #**144** 10-23-2007, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

We used 'daisy cutter' bombs on Afg. We used depleted uranium munitions, missiles (drone fired frequently), and helicopters equipped with night vision goggles against Iraq. I'd say we're pretty close to being 'no holds barred' in our combat.

Pretty close? Your concentration is on munitions. It has been proved that munitions alone do not win a war like we have today. Munitions are but a small portion. If the other side had the same weapons, we'd be extinct.

peragro · #**145** 10-24-2007, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howitzer

10. This Thread

X3

peragro · #**146** 10-24-2007, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I sound shrill?! I know enough about your intellect from your lame attempt to conflate Teri Gross and Jerry Springer to conclude that you haven't the barest clue about either show or probably much of anything else.

You do seem to get your nose quite out of joint when someone says something mean about your favourite performers. You really shouldn't go all pit-bull on people because they don't agree with you.

Weren't you just on another thread getting all mad at someone (who shall remain nameless, like a botonist should) for baselessly attacking Kerry and Gore? Even though he did it factually and with footnotes.

I used to watch Jerry Springer all the time in college. It was very instructional. He taught me that I shouldn't marry my sister-cousin, so I never have (you know, I am from Kentucky, and that's kinda close to Louisiana - at least for you North westerners). Hell, I think that Springer is probably the creative basis of My Name is Earl.

As for Gross, I used to listen to her. I learned now to talk with somewhat of a singsong voice and still be really boring whilst saying nothing at all of substance.

cmac2012 · #**147** 10-24-2007, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palangi

Has it ever occurred to you that people have fought wars, pretty much all throughout history?

No doubt. Sprinkled in among those wars were occasional long periods of peaceful prosperity and cooperation.

The Shia and Sunni have been killing each other on a semi-regular basis for a long time. I don't take that as any sort of validation of their loopiness. Or any reason to want to try to emulate them.

cmac2012 · #**148** 10-24-2007, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

You don't suppose that the Germans had other issues bothering them like Hitler doing stupid things?

Stop and think. I was referring to the period after Hitler was vanquished and the rank and file German troops knew the war was over. They surrendered to US forces much more readily than to Russian forces cuz they knew that the Russians would be about as hard on them as continuing to fight would be. Whereas the Americans had a reputation for mercy and decency. That reputation almost certainly saved American lives.

cmac2012 · #**149** 10-24-2007, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

You do seem to get your nose quite out of joint when someone says something mean about your favourite performers. You really shouldn't go all pit-bull on people because they don't agree with you.

Weren't you just on another thread getting all mad at someone (who shall remain nameless, like a botonist should) for baselessly attacking Kerry and Gore? Even though he did it factually and with footnotes.

I used to watch Jerry Springer all the time in college. It was very instructional. He taught me that I shouldn't marry my sister-cousin, so I never have (you know, I am from Kentucky, and that's kinda close to Louisiana - at least for you North westerners). Hell, I think that Springer is probably the creative basis of My Name is Earl.

Gross is wise enough to stay out of the way of those she interviews. Her questions can be vacuous at times but not bad at others. I don't care if the gentleman from Jerry Springer land doesn't agree with her. His comparing her with Springer is weak and evasive. Another in a long series of pea-brained put-down attempts of them dang liberals. Dude displayed his lack of thought or knowledge on the topic.

The interview I spoke of was a good one, as JD attested to. The man gave examples of how gaining a detainee's trust can get one much good intel.

Torture has, I'm guessing, a 2% chance of getting useful intel and a 99% chance of further alienating the very people whose cooperation we need to bring this thing to some kind of useful resolution.

You find this thread tiresome? Dude, I will guarantee you that having to witness the unimaginative, pseudo tough guys Bush/Cheney shovel this country into the gutter is far more tiresome for your favorite libtard here.

BTW, there are no footnotes and facts that can cover for the two or three tired themes on which Gore and Kerry are beaten up over. It's just lengthy static and obfuscation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

As for Gross, I used to listen to her. I learned now to talk with somewhat of a singsong voice and still be really boring whilst saying nothing at all of substance.

I didn't want to say anything but I've noticed you do have a talent for being really boring while saying nothing at all of substance.

peragro · #**150** 10-24-2007, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I didn't want to say anything but I've noticed you do have a talent for being really boring while saying nothing at all of substance.

See, I learned that from Terry Gross. It's one of the many tools I have in my toolbox. Using only a hammer gets so dull after a while.

BTW, you're kind of slipping on your ad hominem attacks. I don't think you're putting the care and emotion into them that you usually do (see above). Maybe you should step back and try and get the spark back? May I suggest throwing out a "Pergo-pergs" or a "rose coloured glasses/war-hawk" comment? That usually seems to prime the pump.