I do like Greek and Roman and even Norse mythology a lot better.

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I did take it that way. I think it is sometimes done as a tool of religious drama, especially when a religious leader uses it to impress his or her followers. But it is also done in private for other reasons. I'm interested in the non-cognitive components of these private uses.

I don't think there's any evidence that Jesus spoke in tongues.

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Interesting. Care to illustrate the other reason or examples of non-cognitive components?

Nor do i. It was easier to reply to the previous here than to find the other thread....But it would have added something big if he did speak in tongues…..but only after resurrection...

The language/sound producing part of the brain in most of our lives is closely connected to the meaningful production of sounds. In other words, we utter sounds that communicate in a social context. Only rarely do we utter meaningless sounds. This is quite a constrictive process whereby the social necessity of shared meaning impinges upon individual freedom of sound production.
Thinking is closely connected to these meaningful sounds resulting in the fact that thoughts and words become indistinguishable. The private use of glossalalia disconnects meaningful words and sounds resulting in a thoughtless mind.
The best way I know to illustrate this is insomnia. If I can't sleep because my mind is racing, thinking about a million things, I can speak in tongues and the thoughts disappear resulting in almost immediate sleep. So I think that speaking in tongues is a kind of shortcut to the kind of experience that mystics seek in meditation. It's a Pentecostal Nirvana. Part of the reason why I think both traditional Nirvana and Pentecostal Nirvana is appealing is that it frees the individual from the influence of others, producing a religious liberation of sorts. This liberation can only occur in two possible ways. Either it involves no words or sounds at all (the Zen experience) or it involves words and sounds that mean nothing to anyone(the Pentecostal experience). In either instance the 'individual' is freed from society.

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Because of what you said I tried a little experiment with amazing results.

Instead of trying to practice quiet or mantra meditation I used sounds
that came to mind at the time.

I naturally cycled thru several sounds, more aggressive and guttural at first, ending with very southing sounds with lots of s, o, and w sounds.

These sounds seemed to flow naturally from my mind/body.
And it was not a forced progression from aggressive to soothing, but
happened very spontaneously, and naturally.

I dropped to a very deep level of meditation more quickly than usual.

And I finally understand why I like to meditate with loud metal music.

It is the unintelligible, glossolalia like sounds from the vocalist in certain
metal bands.

Dude, thanks very much for posting what you did.
You may have changed the way I meditate.

But I bet anyone that happens to catch me while I am doing it is
gonna think I have really lost my mind.

Thank you
RichC



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This whole thread assumes that all religions are man-made attempts to explain the unknown.
Christianity, as a revealed religion--meaning truth revealed by God that is otherwise unknowable--- is a very different matter.
I hope some of you can appreciate the difference, although I know some will ( willful choice) not.
Lack of belief is not often due to a lack of knowledge, or an imperfection of knowledge, but rather a willful choice not to believe. You do not believe because you choose not to believe.

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Just how can I force myself to again believe things that I now am firmly convinced are nonsense?

If only it were really that easy.

You where saying ?
http://www.geocities.com/worldview_3/science.html

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Quote:

The best way I know to illustrate this is insomnia. If I can't sleep because my mind is racing, thinking about a million things, I can speak in tongues and the thoughts disappear resulting in almost immediate sleep. So I think that speaking in tongues is a kind of shortcut to the kind of experience that mystics seek in meditation. It's a Pentecostal Nirvana. Part of the reason why I think both traditional Nirvana and Pentecostal Nirvana is appealing is that it frees the individual from the influence of others, producing a religious liberation of sorts. This liberation can only occur in two possible ways. Either it involves no words or sounds at all (the Zen experience) or it involves words and sounds that mean nothing to anyone(the Pentecostal experience). In either instance the 'individual' is freed from society.

Very interesting observations. Thanks for sharing. What you are describing sounds a lot like studies of how music works (effect affect), or at least it is very similar. Music circumvents much of the parts of the brain that works with critical thinking and language, and the nature of music can be evocative of every emotion there is. Sound used as language is often used to dissect, while sound used as music is used as a ride of sorts.

What is even more interesting is that you’ve found an internal way to alter your state of mind. Humans and I guess all life have reactions which are highly dependent on outside stimuli to work. As example, if we are frightened by something, our mind and body will react in far more powerful ways than we would otherwise. The adrenalin rush we experience is largely dependent on outside stimuli. It would be difficult to create this adrenalin rush just by concentrating. As another example, if one is obsessing about something, it is difficult to let go of it. Obsessing becomes a nearly perpetual act. You have found a way to not only turn that off, but to calm yourself enough to fall asleep without outside stimuli, other than perhaps the sound of your voice.

Anyway, I agree that sound as an abstract can have a powerful effect on the mind.

Your last sentence brings up the question of what freedom is? Is freedom merely the escape from being “I?” If so, is this a goal of religion? And bringing it back to the topic of the thread, does resurrection of JC serve the purpose of freedom?

Isn't one of the main goals of religion to control behavior? If there is no God or an afterlife, think about this. Man is going to be imperfect. As such, all I have to do is commit a crime and stay out of man's reach long enough and I am home free. Say I kill somebody but nobody saw. As long as I die before somebody finds out, I am free. With religion, there is a God and an afterlife. What does this mean? Well, if I get caught, I get punished and punished again. I don't think any religion has the "Double Jeopardy" clause. So, this means that the crime will be punished at least once, if not twice. There is now NO ESCAPE from punishment. Something for you to consider when doing naughty things.

I think it serves as an extreme example of power. Look, this guy is dead but he has overcome death. If he can do that, he can keep you from dying. Most of our hardened criminals are even afraid of the death penalty. But now, you have a way of living forever. You won't die. See this guy? He was dead. Now he is not.

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I think part of the purpose of some aspects of religion is to provide a release from social pressures.

I have no idea how Jesus' resurrection might produce freedom except insofar as some Christian theologians see it as some kind of juridical settlement, relieving humans from the threat of eternal damnation as a result of being born sinful by inflicting the punishment on Jesus instead of humans, relieving God of his responsibility for having screwed up creation by making humans sinful.

Edit in response to Aklim's view: One of the reasons religion has to relieve people of social pressures is because it does so much to create them.

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1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
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1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Absolutely his death and resurrection is the door into the kingdom of God which is with in you, its a state of being that Chist offers you as you learn of him and walk in his ways..Here is what you cannot understand and the reason is because the knowledge only comes from God.. while you read the bible and try to understand it you cannot unless you have the spirit that wrote the bible living on the inside of you.. this only comes by your exceptence of Christ resurection and you believe who he said he is.. when you commit your heart to that purpose then you will have an experience that will take all your doubts and unbeleives away I garantee it. Now the bible comes alive and It is the greatest book ever writen. how vast is the bible as vast as God is there is no end to it.. you can spend the rest of your life searching the scriptures and never find an end to the depth of knowledge it goes on and on and on...wise men seek him..

Now that's funny. Unfortunately, it doesn't actually prove anything.

Attempted proofs of god should have stopped with Aquinas.

To each their own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus

What are you looking to prove Matt? His existence? If there is any God?

Unfortunately there is no proof that can be handed to you that unequivocally proves the existence of a creator. Except creation.

Can you afford to deny his existence?

There are many things that cannot be seen and we accept they exist.

Your conscience is your guide and you have to accept what following your conscience brings you.

We all believe what we choose to believe...that is freedom of choice.


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