OK broman, in what way do you explain rightie bad behavior, such as Westmoreland's free fire zones or the spreading of the most toxic plant killer known on some 10 to 20% of the nation?

Or how about carpet bombing of Hanoi?

People in Vietnam saw their villages get burned, their family members engulfed by napalm, and their kids born deformed from Agent Orange and you're teary eyed until death because a few vets got some mouth juice sprayed on them (allegedly - I've not seen video of it).

Cry me a river.

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Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

OK broman, in what way do you explain rightie bad behavior

many things were done by nixon < and henry kissinger < him especially

i came to believe with NO PROOF that when he HK went to the NVN ( Paris Piece talks ) and layed out the offering of money for POWs, he was able to get the officers reliesed and than they the Nixon WH was to pay war reperations REMEMBER THAT -- well what happened we dident pay them, and to me and many vets that was a death nail to all the regular foot soldiers that were being held BTW no regular GIs were ever reliesed

The right got away with bombing clinics in the 80's, I would call that a terrorists act
yet Reagan did nothing. Gun nuts on the right dream of overthrowing the gov if the election doesn't go their way.

Both bad behavior that is justified in some minds.

People in Vietnam saw their villages get burned, their family members engulfed by napalm, and their kids born deformed from Agent Orange and you're teary eyed until death because a few vets got some mouth juice sprayed on them (allegedly - I've not seen video of it).

i was not going to do this but i must

i spent 56 weeks on Kemo fighting my end of Agent orange the VA saw fit to send me 13 checks for 318 bucks each for my troubles

( allegedly ) the Hepatitis Type B and C i also had, was an asian type and intafurian injections for 48 weeks was not fun BTW

i contracted it doing huey medavac runs into the A Shau Valley during Hill 937 ( hamburger hill to the movie goers )

as far as NAPALM ONTO THE KIDS IN TOWN the VA gives me Meds for those day like this one when again our young boys trying to do the thing 40 years ago could have made a mistake Maybe,

you cant even amagin what it feels like to have that hanging over you as a soldier

but i never was involved with any operation of that kind of Fup and never seen any kids on fire was in country for 2 tours

but i do have a video its Me in the huey gun ship in 1969 on a mission its the only real one i know of -

i have been clear of all of what i was treated for at the VA so far -- jz

It's clear that you've endured a great deal as a result of your service. I'm sure you've got many complaints about the war that are far more valid than mine.

I've never gone out of my way to give any vet crap about anything. But after 30 - 40 years of being given crap of my own, directly or indirectly, about being some kind of draft dodging coward, I'm disinclined to not speak frankly about my end of the experience.

The war struck me as bizarre and pointless. No way was I going to take the chance of being stuck under some nimrod dweeb like William Calley ordering me to slaughter peasants. Or Westmoreland. The guy turned my stomach.

It's a wide chasm in American between the pro and anti Vietnam war crowd. It's very much an issue still in play.

__________________
Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

i would love to go into it with you - you seem to be real

almost all of the guys i grew up died of lead poisoning, and the others are on the left and most took the path you did, don't let anyone get under your skin about not going into the service. you need to know this - in the groups i have been involved with it has come up many times about the drafted guys, as well as the guys who were looking for any reason not to be in country, they having a different take on being in the zone caused them to be more at risk of losing their lives than the guys who were their for patriotic reasons < they did stupid things i think they were pre octupied and it caused then to make real mistakes and their was no room for them -

as a FNG and someone who was not wanting to do what it took you probly would be on the wall in DC < my take

Anyway -- the guy who runs the open forum has a hardon for me and every week he has given me an infraction so the chances are i will be thrown off the site soon, others have e mailed me telling me seeing what is happening, to contact the owner of the site - i have never been good at contacting authority about anything hahahahahahahahaha --

i will continue to post up to the end -- and if we get into to it i will be banished for sure --- jz

Maybe you should take this opportunity to set your record straight. You gamed the system to exempt yourself from the chance of personal harm by fraudulently claiming Conscientious Objector status. Now you want to have others believe this was somehow a noble act on your part and not the cowardly self-interest that you bemoan people for 30-40 years have rightfully recognized it to be?

On March 8, 1971 the US Supreme Court had already rendered its decision on the constitutionality of the “selective conscientious objection” which you perversely rely upon as your defense.

GILLETTE v. UNITED STATES, 401 U.S. 437 (1971) Holds that,” The exemption for those who oppose "participation in war in any form" applies to those who oppose participating in all war and not to those who object to participation in a particular war only, even if the latter objection is religious in character.”

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=401&invol=437

You have repeatedly made postings regarding your beliefs regarding other wars and your alleged willingness to participate in them and repeatedly confessed the nature of your objections to the Vietnam War! Your own statements convict you plain and simple, you’ve stated that had your time been the American Revolution, WWII or Afghanistan you would have chosen to serve and fight but in actuality when your time came to stand on principle you did not. You’re not opposed to all wars, only the war that would have actually put you at risk. How does that make someone anything other than “a draft dodging coward”?

You state, “Military service is a major coming of age ritual in the US, something I looked forward to and then when it came my time, the war from hell beckoned. Of course it was a signature event in my life.”

“But after 30 - 40 years of being given crap of my own, directly or indirectly, about being some kind of draft dodging coward, I'm disinclined to not speak frankly about my end of the experience.”

Maybe now is the time to reflect and accept that by your own admissions you are not in fact nor ever where ,”a conscientious objector” and abandon your claims that your actions where motivated buy anything but self preservation.

Living that lie of your “signature event in my life” for 37 years has misshapen you; of necessity you’ve constructed a world view to rationalize disgraceful conduct as virtue.

Your response to those who accepted the call to sacrificed life and limb, where you responded with scheme and deceit is:
Shame on you.

Well said. I find it disturbing when those who have never served have the gall to insult those who have. When someone puts their life on the line in the service of their country(regardless of whether history proves the war to be moral or necessary) they should be treated with nothing but respect.

Shame on me? KMGDA.

My position did not adhere to the textbook definition of a CO as that stipulates that you must be opposed on a moral basis to all wars at all times. I'm not a full time pacifist. There are times that if you don't stand up and fight, your life will be forfeit and your family enslaved.

However I did have a strong moral objection to what was going on in Vietnam. If I hadn't been a CO, I would have gone underground. I wasn't going to do anything under orders from the world record ass William Westmoreland. The CO route appealed to me as it gave the chance to state my reasoning before agents of the nation and to serve the country in some capacity.

You're going to tell me that Lt. Calley and all the others who didn't get caught who were burning down villages and slaughtering peasants on orders that they didn't have the good sense to refuse somehow accrued more honor than those of us who understood the biblical admonition "blessed are they who walketh not in the counsel of the un-Godly?"

The Red White and Blue does not confer unimpeachable righteousness.

__________________
Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Not sure what an FNG is. But you're probably right. Vietnam would not have been a good place to be if you were ambivalent about the mission.

I sorta came down with Muhammed Ali on it: no Viet Cong ever so much as insulted my family. We were in a weird place where the several degrees of separation danger that we felt from a communist Vietnam was enough for us to deal out real death and destruction in the here and now to a bunch of peasants who couldn't have made it to our shores to harm us in 1,000 years.

__________________
Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

1 - FNG feffen new guy

2 - well it was partly my understanding and seeing the same information as you at the time it was not undifferent and again today in Muslim world

i though we were their to stop communist inftration from taking over that reagion - ( laos ) - Vientiane area 91,428 square miles (236,799 square kilometers), population 4,533,000 was as well as Vietnam was under a threat

and lets not forget what happened when the mission failed not only did 10s of thousands a day die from the norths take over and its hard for me to say they were kind compaired to

Cambodia - SE Asia bordering on Gulf of Thailand ∗ Phnom Penh area 69,898 square miles (181,036 square kilometers), population 11,437,656

and since we bailed they the kamarooosee guys what was it again, every person with the ability to read or write was killed 10s of millions were done away with. ALL because we ( NOT stopping the expansion of the spread of communist ) had the affect we who served know all too well can and will happen again History that is

Flaming children i think you wrote thats what we majored in

AND this does go to what that HACK cris Nomatters said its the way the LEFT see our fighting force and openly speak about them and always have

soooo tell me again i am now a bit confused you were then and are now ok with what happen as a result of us leaving the South East Area

and some how you can then condone the mass killing of millons is what our fault, me and my fellow soldiers for being their in the first place

i am again in need of englighenment -- jz

Yeah, former vp D.C. did what he could to get out of serving his country. GWB did serve in the national guard but wanted his own physician to do the yearly required physical, that is prohibited by the air force. So he can say hey, I tried.
CM served in the peace corp 68-70.

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83 SD

84 CD

What a poltroon, I hope his sponsors take notice and he withers away and dies in his time slot!

You are referring to Bill OReilly when he accused American Soldiers of war crimes(twice)..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2KU02lsfH8&feature=PlayList&p=3F883C2CE20E94BF&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1

Try to stay on topic