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  #1  
Old 12-05-2009, 08:16 PM
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"Cry me a river"

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
But after 30 - 40 years of being given crap of my own, directly or indirectly, about being some kind of draft dodging coward, I'm disinclined to not speak frankly about my end of the experience.

The war struck me as bizarre and pointless. No way was I going to take the chance of being stuck under some nimrod dweeb like William Calley ordering me to slaughter peasants. Or Westmoreland. The guy turned my stomach.
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
I never so much as insulted a vet in or out of uniform but I also believed the war was insanely stupid as did my father who had been a sergeant Major in the Pacific theater in WW2. He said he would help me stay out of it if that was my choice and it was. Didn't need his help as it turned out but his support was certainly welcome. My draft # was 12 in 1972 and I ended up working as a conscientious objector at a Salvation Army youth club.

My angry man pal Chris Bellicose seems to think it funny that the experience would have had an effect on my life. This should be a surprise? Military service is a major coming of age ritual in the US, something I looked forward to and then when it came my time, the war from hell beckoned. Of course it was a signature event in my life.

Swift boaters and our Jzjzjzjzjz buddy clearly had a large part of their world view shaped by Vietnam but apparently that is good and proper. Those of us who declined to participate in pointless mass murder are, of course, merely losers.

Maybe you should take this opportunity to set your record straight. You gamed the system to exempt yourself from the chance of personal harm by fraudulently claiming Conscientious Objector status. Now you want to have others believe this was somehow a noble act on your part and not the cowardly self-interest that you bemoan people for 30-40 years have rightfully recognized it to be?

On March 8, 1971 the US Supreme Court had already rendered its decision on the constitutionality of the “selective conscientious objection” which you perversely rely upon as your defense.

GILLETTE v. UNITED STATES, 401 U.S. 437 (1971) Holds that,” The exemption for those who oppose "participation in war in any form" applies to those who oppose participating in all war and not to those who object to participation in a particular war only, even if the latter objection is religious in character.”

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=401&invol=437

You have repeatedly made postings regarding your beliefs regarding other wars and your alleged willingness to participate in them and repeatedly confessed the nature of your objections to the Vietnam War! Your own statements convict you plain and simple, you’ve stated that had your time been the American Revolution, WWII or Afghanistan you would have chosen to serve and fight but in actuality when your time came to stand on principle you did not. You’re not opposed to all wars, only the war that would have actually put you at risk. How does that make someone anything other than “a draft dodging coward”?

You state, “Military service is a major coming of age ritual in the US, something I looked forward to and then when it came my time, the war from hell beckoned. Of course it was a signature event in my life.”

“But after 30 - 40 years of being given crap of my own, directly or indirectly, about being some kind of draft dodging coward, I'm disinclined to not speak frankly about my end of the experience.”

Maybe now is the time to reflect and accept that by your own admissions you are not in fact nor ever where ,”a conscientious objector” and abandon your claims that your actions where motivated buy anything but self preservation.

Living that lie of your “signature event in my life” for 37 years has misshapen you; of necessity you’ve constructed a world view to rationalize disgraceful conduct as virtue.

Your response to those who accepted the call to sacrificed life and limb, where you responded with scheme and deceit is:
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Cry me a river.
Shame on you.
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  #2  
Old 12-05-2009, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybob View Post
Maybe you should take this opportunity to set your record straight. You gamed the system to exempt yourself from the chance of personal harm by fraudulently claiming Conscientious Objector status. Now you want to have others believe this was somehow a noble act on your part and not the cowardly self-interest that you bemoan people for 30-40 years have rightfully recognized it to be?

On March 8, 1971 the US Supreme Court had already rendered its decision on the constitutionality of the “selective conscientious objection” which you perversely rely upon as your defense.

GILLETTE v. UNITED STATES, 401 U.S. 437 (1971) Holds that,” The exemption for those who oppose "participation in war in any form" applies to those who oppose participating in all war and not to those who object to participation in a particular war only, even if the latter objection is religious in character.”

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=401&invol=437

You have repeatedly made postings regarding your beliefs regarding other wars and your alleged willingness to participate in them and repeatedly confessed the nature of your objections to the Vietnam War! Your own statements convict you plain and simple, you’ve stated that had your time been the American Revolution, WWII or Afghanistan you would have chosen to serve and fight but in actuality when your time came to stand on principle you did not. You’re not opposed to all wars, only the war that would have actually put you at risk. How does that make someone anything other than “a draft dodging coward”?

You state, “Military service is a major coming of age ritual in the US, something I looked forward to and then when it came my time, the war from hell beckoned. Of course it was a signature event in my life.”

“But after 30 - 40 years of being given crap of my own, directly or indirectly, about being some kind of draft dodging coward, I'm disinclined to not speak frankly about my end of the experience.”

Maybe now is the time to reflect and accept that by your own admissions you are not in fact nor ever where ,”a conscientious objector” and abandon your claims that your actions where motivated buy anything but self preservation.

Living that lie of your “signature event in my life” for 37 years has misshapen you; of necessity you’ve constructed a world view to rationalize disgraceful conduct as virtue.

Your response to those who accepted the call to sacrificed life and limb, where you responded with scheme and deceit is:


Shame on you.
Well said. I find it disturbing when those who have never served have the gall to insult those who have. When someone puts their life on the line in the service of their country(regardless of whether history proves the war to be moral or necessary) they should be treated with nothing but respect.
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  #3  
Old 12-06-2009, 11:25 AM
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How Vice Presidential this tread is becoming. http://www.rense.com/general52/chenn.htmDid Cheney Dodge
The Draft Five Times?
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  #4  
Old 12-06-2009, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10fords View Post
Well said. I find it disturbing when those who have never served have the gall to insult those who have. When someone puts their life on the line in the service of their country(regardless of whether history proves the war to be moral or necessary) they should be treated with nothing but respect.
"[T]he Senator from Massachusetts has given us ample doubts about his judgment and the attitude he brings to bear on vital issues of national security," Vice President Dick Cheney said during a March 17 visit to the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library and Museum. He was talking, of course, about John Kerry, the putative Democratic presidential nominee. During the past three years, we've all become better acquainted with Vice President Cheney's judgment and attitude toward national security, which are a good deal more hawkish than Kerry's. A widely observed irony is that the dovish Kerry saw combat in Vietnam while the hawkish Cheney accepted a series of student and family-related draft deferments. Cheney's unself-consciousness about this is (or at least was) so pronounced that in 1989 he told George C. Wilson of the Washington Post, "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."

Last edited by daveuz; 12-06-2009 at 11:58 AM.
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  #5  
Old 12-07-2009, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybob View Post
Maybe you should take this opportunity to set your record straight. You gamed the system to exempt yourself from the chance of personal harm by fraudulently claiming Conscientious Objector status. Now you want to have others believe this was somehow a noble act on your part and not the cowardly self-interest that you bemoan people for 30-40 years have rightfully recognized it to be?

On March 8, 1971 the US Supreme Court had already rendered its decision on the constitutionality of the “selective conscientious objection” which you perversely rely upon as your defense.

GILLETTE v. UNITED STATES, 401 U.S. 437 (1971) Holds that,” The exemption for those who oppose "participation in war in any form" applies to those who oppose participating in all war and not to those who object to participation in a particular war only, even if the latter objection is religious in character.”

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=401&invol=437

You have repeatedly made postings regarding your beliefs regarding other wars and your alleged willingness to participate in them and repeatedly confessed the nature of your objections to the Vietnam War! Your own statements convict you plain and simple, you’ve stated that had your time been the American Revolution, WWII or Afghanistan you would have chosen to serve and fight but in actuality when your time came to stand on principle you did not. You’re not opposed to all wars, only the war that would have actually put you at risk. How does that make someone anything other than “a draft dodging coward”?

You state, “Military service is a major coming of age ritual in the US, something I looked forward to and then when it came my time, the war from hell beckoned. Of course it was a signature event in my life.”

“But after 30 - 40 years of being given crap of my own, directly or indirectly, about being some kind of draft dodging coward, I'm disinclined to not speak frankly about my end of the experience.”

Maybe now is the time to reflect and accept that by your own admissions you are not in fact nor ever where ,”a conscientious objector” and abandon your claims that your actions where motivated buy anything but self preservation.

Living that lie of your “signature event in my life” for 37 years has misshapen you; of necessity you’ve constructed a world view to rationalize disgraceful conduct as virtue.

Your response to those who accepted the call to sacrificed life and limb, where you responded with scheme and deceit is:


Shame on you.
Shame on me? KMGDA.

My position did not adhere to the textbook definition of a CO as that stipulates that you must be opposed on a moral basis to all wars at all times. I'm not a full time pacifist. There are times that if you don't stand up and fight, your life will be forfeit and your family enslaved.

However I did have a strong moral objection to what was going on in Vietnam. If I hadn't been a CO, I would have gone underground. I wasn't going to do anything under orders from the world record ass William Westmoreland. The CO route appealed to me as it gave the chance to state my reasoning before agents of the nation and to serve the country in some capacity.

You're going to tell me that Lt. Calley and all the others who didn't get caught who were burning down villages and slaughtering peasants on orders that they didn't have the good sense to refuse somehow accrued more honor than those of us who understood the biblical admonition "blessed are they who walketh not in the counsel of the un-Godly?"

The Red White and Blue does not confer unimpeachable righteousness.
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  #6  
Old 12-07-2009, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Shame on me? KMGDA.

My position did not adhere to the textbook definition of a CO as that stipulates that you must be opposed on a moral basis to all wars at all times. I'm not a full time pacifist. There are times that if you don't stand up and fight, your life will be forfeit and your family enslaved.

However I did have a strong moral objection to what was going on in Vietnam. If I hadn't been a CO, I would have gone underground. I wasn't going to do anything under orders from the world record ass William Westmoreland. The CO route appealed to me as it gave the chance to state my reasoning before agents of the nation and to serve the country in some capacity.

You're going to tell me that Lt. Calley and all the others who didn't get caught who were burning down villages and slaughtering peasants on orders that they didn't have the good sense to refuse somehow accrued more honor than those of us who understood the biblical admonition "blessed are they who walketh not in the counsel of the un-Godly?"

The Red White and Blue does not confer unimpeachable righteousness.
Absolutely, these men and women risked life and limb with many paying with their lives to burn down those villages and slaughter those peasants in order that self-admitted cowardly draft dodging frauds could play basketball with children while self-congratulating themselves for adopting the moral "soup of the day" which most conveniently suited their own selfish interest.

Once again you display the vacant integrity of a hypocrite when you near simultaneously attempt to justify past disgraceful conduct by quoting scripture so soon after taking the name of the LORD your God in vain, i.e.: Kiss My God Damn A&&.

For the record I sincerely doubt any of these fine Americans who answered the call of their country would even let someone like you kiss anything they hold near and dear.

There is at least some small consolation that even though many of these fallen men and women did not get the opportunity to pass on their brave DNA, at least they would be comforted that natural selection has thus far prevented you from passing on yours.
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Billybob View Post
Absolutely, these men and women risked life and limb with many paying with their lives to burn down those villages and slaughter those peasants in order that self-admitted cowardly draft dodging frauds could play basketball with children while self-congratulating themselves for adopting the moral "soup of the day" which most conveniently suited their own selfish interest.

Once again you display the vacant integrity of a hypocrite when you near simultaneously attempt to justify past disgraceful conduct by quoting scripture so soon after taking the name of the LORD your God in vain, i.e.: Kiss My God Damn A&&.

For the record I sincerely doubt any of these fine Americans who answered the call of their country would even let someone like you kiss anything they hold near and dear.

There is at least some small consolation that even though many of these fallen men and women did not get the opportunity to pass on their brave DNA, at least they would be comforted that natural selection has thus far prevented you from passing on yours.
Dude, hang a big sign around your neck that says CLUELESS in bold face. You extrapolate anything that takes place when US armed forces fire a shot in anger anywhere in the world as being brave and honorable defense of family and nation. In no way did anything that happened in Vietnam make me any safer in the US. If anything, it made me/us less safe. It demonstrated how clueless and paranoid we were while at the same time depleting our treasury and maiming and killing our youth.

Read the words of JC again. You missed something. And I typed some capital letters - you took the Lord's name in vain, by your definition anyway. The definition I like means to use the name of the Lord as some sort of imprimatur of righteousness, i.e., we are the chosen of God, God is with us, we are doing God's work, etc. That's for God to decide.
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Old 12-08-2009, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Dude, hang a big sign around your neck that says CLUELESS in bold face. You extrapolate anything that takes place when US armed forces fire a shot in anger anywhere in the world as being brave and honorable defense of family and nation. In no way did anything that happened in Vietnam make me any safer in the US. If anything, it made me/us less safe. It demonstrated how clueless and paranoid we were while at the same time depleting our treasury and maiming and killing our youth.

Read the words of JC again. You missed something. And I typed some capital letters - you took the Lord's name in vain, by your definition anyway. The definition I like means to use the name of the Lord as some sort of imprimatur of righteousness, i.e., we are the chosen of God, God is with us, we are doing God's work, etc. That's for God to decide.
Unfortunately you are trapped in your own delusion that the issue is whether or not the war was morale or whether or not something you don’t like happened during that war. The reality is you elected to dodge the draft that would have put you there and many other people answered that call. They are brave not for anything that was done after they answered that call but for not running and hiding when the time came for them to do so.

You constantly spout hyperbolic rhetoric that you undoubtedly have rehearsed for many years, you may have on the surface convinced yourself but by your own admission many people over the prior 30-40 years have not bought your BS, so many and so often that only last week you felt compelled to tell everyone of your suffering at their hands.

Your self delusional rationalization is that nothing else occurred in SE Asia during that time other than burning of villages, slaughtering of peasants, and napalming of innocents; obviously not many have validated your view that’s why you’re so sensitive about it and regurgitate it so regularly.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22blessed+are+they+who+walketh+not+in+the+counsel+of+the+un-Godly&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

It’s clear why only the out of context first portion was valuable to you! “Agnostic” just in case there really is a GOD then you can proclaim that you never “actually denied his existence”?

“And I typed some capital letters” right; just meaningless random letters for which I now will now torture a definition that will seek to insulate me from their painfully obvious the plain meaning.

Back on topic, the language that Chris Mathews chose to use is illustrative, of his perspective. Only by accepting and understanding that can anyone make sense of his articulated view that the USMA at West Point could be “the enemy camp” of any CIC, everything else is nothing more than an attempt to excuse and deny that reality.
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Old 12-09-2009, 04:55 AM
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Unfortunately you are trapped in your own delusion . . .
He who smelt it dealt it.
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Old 12-09-2009, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Dude, hang a big sign around your neck that says CLUELESS in bold face. You extrapolate anything that takes place when US armed forces fire a shot in anger anywhere in the world as being brave and honorable defense of family and nation. In no way did anything that happened in Vietnam make me any safer in the US. If anything, it made me/us less safe. It demonstrated how clueless and paranoid we were while at the same time depleting our treasury and maiming and killing our youth.

Read the words of JC again. You missed something. And I typed some capital letters - you took the Lord's name in vain, by your definition anyway. The definition I like means to use the name of the Lord as some sort of imprimatur of righteousness, i.e., we are the chosen of God, God is with us, we are doing God's work, etc. That's for God to decide.
Extrapolation is for scientists...in this case, you could also extrapolate the reasoning for why is there a need for police officers...anywhere. If there's no crime or illegal activity going on in MY neighborhood, then why should I have to pay for an officer to stand around and do nothing? Why have an officer at all?

We, as a nation, had seen the dark side of communism and in some ways, attempted to remove it from everyday life. Didn't work. We attempted to remove it from countries...didn't work. There are too many folks that still think it's a utopia that "needs a chance" to just have its day in the sun. And they'll take any route or routine to get it in the spot-light.

So it goes...

As for us being "God's chosen..."

We definately are. But, God put CERTAIN men in charge while we are on this earth and prior to his return (Jesus's). As such, he also gave us the laws by which we should live and obey his teachings.

Laws and getting along have benefits and consequences. As such, He gave those, in charge, the ability to enact and enforce those laws. And as such, some folks don't agree with those laws. So...we are back to having a "police presense" and as such, criminals that think they can do what they want, when they want. Whether it be the mugger in the shadows in your neighborhood, or a whole government of despots that usurp life, liberty and pursuit of happiness by whatever means at their disposal.

Some may say those times are over and some may say it's a "greased side to hell" right now.

To each their own.

But, if we continue to think that we can "pick and choose" when to use the Bible and His Words when the mood hits us, then we are no better than the fool that quotes "an eye for an eye" and believes it as the end all for all arguments.

The NT is the book that is current. The OT is a "history lesson" as to how and why things were the way they were. Until you begin to understand that, the Bible will ALWAYS remain the paradox most think it is...

I'm off the soap-box and out of the pulpit...

Have a happy blizzard today...

.
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  #11  
Old 12-10-2009, 02:37 AM
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As for us being "God's chosen..."

We definately are. But, God put CERTAIN men in charge while we are on this earth and prior to his return (Jesus's). As such, he also gave us the laws by which we should live and obey his teachings.

But, if we continue to think that we can "pick and choose" when to use the Bible and His Words when the mood hits us, then we are no better than the fool that quotes "an eye for an eye" and believes it as the end all for all arguments.

The NT is the book that is current. The OT is a "history lesson" as to how and why things were the way they were. Until you begin to understand that, the Bible will ALWAYS remain the paradox most think it is...
What, God speaks to you and not just W? I think perhaps God will have the say on who is or is not "his chosen." Assuming an earthly ability to define such things sounds like pride to me.

And he put CERTAIN men in charge? Dang, God shares a lot with you.

I'm not picking choosing $h!t. I read that line years ago and it sounded solid to me so it stuck with me. The NT is hardly current. Both books have useful and not so useful parts IMHO.
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Old 12-07-2009, 09:02 PM
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than those of us who understood the biblical admonition "blessed are they who walketh not in the counsel of the un-Godly?"
Being a devout atheist, but having been exposed too much scripture over the years I'm not familiar with the quote you've provided. Is it authentic? A Google search brings up only your single articulation!
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Old 12-08-2009, 02:58 AM
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Being a devout atheist, but having been exposed too much scripture over the years I'm not familiar with the quote you've provided. Is it authentic? A Google search brings up only your single articulation!
A Google search brought up my post and my post only? Golly, I'm flattered. I'm borderline agnostic myself, but I find the bible, the Tao Teh Ching, the words of the Buddha, etc. to be a handy compilation of accumulated wisdom.

That would be Psalms 1:1

1 Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
or sit in the seat of mockers.

1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.


The latter is the King James version.

And uhhh . . . are you $h!tting me? I did the same Google search and got somewhat different results:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=blessed+are+they+who+walketh+not+in+the+counsel+of+the+un-Godly%3F%22&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
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Last edited by cmac2012; 12-08-2009 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 12-08-2009, 05:52 AM
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FIGHT... FIGHT... FIGHT...


Seriously guys, can we go back to Chris Matthews and the USMA?

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Old 12-08-2009, 06:19 AM
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Seriously guys, can we go back to Chris Matthews and the USMA?

I agree.

cmac2012, you know what they say about wrestling with pigs?
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