Aerodynamics-- request for project help - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

panZZer · #46 11-04-2015, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hetiticth

And after a little over a year, I've a update! I swear I (mostly) didn't forget about the forums..

Anyway, here are some updates. Lots of things have changed, and I now am thinking of eventually creating a company, that would produce vehicles very similar to this one.

There will be, at a minimum, three versions of the car. I will mainly be focusing on the high performance version of the car, as I find it to be the most interesting, as well as the most complex.

This project has been delayed indefinitely. While I still intend to make it, the production stage will not begin until I have, at the very least, a bachelors degree and a steady flow of income.

That being said, I would still like to toss some ideas around, before resuming development.

I know it is a longshot, but has anyone here ever messed with a Lenco transmission?

I've presented my ideas to a few people engineers, and the general consensus is that I have chosen the right path for my goals with the vehicle.

So now, the plan is a tubular chassis made from chrome moly tubing.
I plan on working with an established company for the independent front and rear suspension. I'm partial to Art Morrison, because they seem to be incredibly knowledgeable, as well as receptive to custom projects.

I am most likely going to be using an large, aluminum, big block Chevrolet motor, because the small blocks have the Siamese exhaust ports, and I believe it is a poor design. I have a power goal of n/a 800-1000BHP, or 1400+ with a forced induction system.
I will likely not go with a forced induction system, because it makes things more complicated, and one of my goals is to keep the system as simple as possible.

I am thinking of using a Lenco transmission for a few reasons. They are very customizable, sturdy, and they look pretty damn cool (shush, looks are important).

I don't think cooling will be much of an issue. I was concerned with space, but instead I have decided that moving the engine rearward by a few inches, and making the radiator as tall as the motor, should provide sufficient cooling.

There will be a concave panel on the bottom of the vehicle, which will cooperate with an electronic wing in the rear, in order to maintain traction at high speeds.

I don't plan on installing power steering, or power brakes, in the first version of the vehicle. If the car is difficult to steer/stop, I will modify it.

There will be no airbags anywhere. Your only safety features will be a roll cage, and a 5 point seatbelt.

Unfortunately, if I am making and selling a vehicle, I am required by law to put some emissions control on there somewhere, unless I sell the vehicle without the engine.

That's all I can think of off the top my head, questions are always welcome!!

well , being able to make them,, and sell them later down the road,

with a custom fabbed aero body
with a chrome moly tube chassis,
withAart Morrison front and rear suspension
with a lenco transmission
and with a ...... 1000 to 1400 hp aluminum bigblock... ?

where on earth are you going to get any of those?

here is a SERIOUS hint about actual feasibility
(8th digit vin code P) -- that wont get you there but you can pm me for the meaning
all this is a dillusion of grandeur some would say.

better plan on selling to international folks with the kind of money this will end up being

hetiticth · #47 11-04-2015, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panZZer

well , being able to make them,, and sell them later down the road,

with a custom fabbed aero body
with a chrome moly tube chassis,
withAart Morrison front and rear suspension
with a lenco transmission
and with a ...... 1000 to 1400 hp aluminum bigblock... ?

where on earth are you going to get any of those?

here is a SERIOUS hint about actual feasibility
(8th digit vin code P) -- that wont get you there but you can pm me for the meaning
all this is a dillusion of grandeur some would say.

better plan on selling to international folks with the kind of money this will end up being

For the final product, I don't plan on scavenging the parts. The body and the frame will be handmade.
You can purchase higher-than-factory displacement crate motors on several websites. I imagine that I'll grab one of these, and put it together myself.
Something like this, for example (after a very short google search): Link
This is just one that is pre-built. If you put together the motor yourself, you have a lot more you can do.

The Lenco transmission is also something that I would purchase.

With the IRS and IFS, I imagine I'll only need to buy one or two of the kits from Art Morrison, and then I can make my own design that is based on theirs.

When I made the initial post, all of the products mentioned were available online.

I intend these to be only in the highest performance model of the car. I will use other parts for the other models.

Mxfrank · #48 11-04-2015, 11:08 PM

Having done projects like this, I have one thing to say to you:

SNAP OUT OF IT!

First off, that car looks like it will be an aerodynamic pig. The big frontal area, sloping rear, tumblehome and pointy tail look slick, but will result in high drag. If you were serious about building a vintage German aerodynamic design, then the car to build would be the BMW Kamm back. It was a milestone with regard to aerodynamics, but not much to look at:

BMW 328 Kamm Coupe (1940)

http://ae-plus.com/milestones/wunibald-kamm-helped-define-modern-day-aerodynamics/page:2

As far as budget, you'll need a kings ransom to build that car and make it work. I would budget $250,000 with no complications. And there will be complications. A Lesco transmission will probably cost your whole allowance, much cheaper and better to use a BW T5, and hunt up a set of straight cut gears.

After you've spend a quarter mill on the body and chassis, do you really want to use an SBC crate motor? At least use an M3 motor. But let me stop here and say again:

SNAP OUT OF IT!

hetiticth · #49 11-04-2015, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mxfrank

Having done projects like this, I have one thing to say to you:

SNAP OUT OF IT!

First off, that car looks like it will be an aerodynamic pig. The big frontal area, sloping rear, tumblehome and pointy tail look slick, but will result in high drag. If you were serious about building a vintage German aerodynamic design, then the car to build would be the BMW Kamm back. It was a milestone with regard to aerodynamics, but not much to look at:

BMW 328 Kamm Coupe (1940)

Milestones - Automotive Engineer

As far as budget, you'll need a kings ransom to build that car and make it work. I would budget $250,000 with no complications. And there will be complications. A Lesco transmission will probably cost your whole allowance, much cheaper and better to use a BW T5, and hunt up a set of straight cut gears.

After you've spend a quarter mill on the body and chassis, do you really want to use an SBC crate motor? At least use an M3 motor. But let me stop here and say again:

SNAP OUT OF IT!

A quarter of a million? Are we talking USD here?
I can't imagine ever having it cost that much.
Let me run up a quick list, if I use all new parts:
Lenco ST1200: $10,000 max
BBC: $15,000 max
Carbon Fiber (body panels): $5,000
Chrome Moly Tubing: $10/foot (the most expensive I saw) @ say.. 200ft.
Chrome Moly Tubing: $2,000
IRS: $5,000
IFS: $5,000
Extra Misc. Goodies: $8,000
Total:$50,000

That is assuming that I don't decide to design and fab up something myself for the suspension, and also that I buy a complete and assembled block.

The sbc350 would only be for a 'proof of concept' type build. It won't be in the final build. The final would have a big block Chevy.
I'm going with Chevy, because I have a lot of experience working on Chevy motors, and the parts are cheap and readily available.

I would argue that the design of the car I'm basing this off of is more aerodynamic than the one by Kamm. Look at this:

This is just a very basic image, but it explains a lot. Fluid dynamics show that the ideal shape is a teardrop.

The tail is quite useful in reducing drag. What Kamm had designed, where the tail is cut off at a certain point, achieves most of the aerodynamic benefits of the tail design. The end was cut off in order to cut off materials and size from the vehicle.

I'll look into your suggestion, I could always be wrong.

I'm not really looking to replicate a car. I'm using the Maybach as a starting point for my own design, though it will likely end up looking very similar.

MTI · #50 11-04-2015, 11:59 PM

How about . . . you complete your rolling chassis and then get back to us. We'd be interested in the cost of your chassis jigs and body attachment plan.

Your $50K projection is wholly inadequate. As a point of reference, use your computer to price out the cost to build a reasonable "kit" car, like a Cobra 427, Lotus Super 7, Ford GT40 replica or even a decent "rat rod" and see if you can do it, with your own labor, for $50K. Then consider all the custom fabrication and construction you will require for your project.

Post some pictures of the rolling chassis.

t walgamuth · #51 11-05-2015, 06:12 AM

Hey guys, please be nice. This young man is filled with ambition to do this project. Will it ever get done? nobody knows now, but it sure does not hurt us to be positive about it instead of negative.

The truth is that there are hundreds of unfinished cars around started by people who had ambition but for many reasons never were able to finish it off.

There are also many examples of cars that were dreamed of for years and finished.

I disagree on the aero of the car with the fellow who said it would be a brick. I think it looks very slick and would have an impressive drag coefficient.

I used to dream up major project cars like this all the time when I was in college. I never came close to anything like it though until I was in my mid sixties with kids educated and married off. And now I am in the process of getting the 39 Studebaker pickup built. I'm not doing much of the labor but am having a great time digging around for parts and how to do things.

The creative urge is strong. Don't suppress it, channel it.

MTI · #52 11-05-2015, 09:53 AM

Tom, I agree that pie in the sky dreams should be encouraged as a creative process, however when one seeks help and consultation, and it is freely given but rejected without any reasonable basis or discussion, then it's difficult to be amicable.

t walgamuth · #53 11-05-2015, 09:58 AM

I did not notice the rejections.

panZZer · #54 11-05-2015, 06:22 PM

Lots of guys can manage to build lots of technically involved cars with some good -hard applying your skills, but first you gotta go sell your labor to some shop to learn, like go park yourself in the town art Morrison is in and keep bugging him for a job.
or where ever else.
TSC GT40 Monocoque Chassis

For Shaun84Targa and any other crazy Pelicans: Wanna start a car company? - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

the good news is the kid is 18 and has lots of time,

just don't tell yourself you can do this by the time you are 28!
( more like 58 maybe).

do you have a rich uncle or auntee that's gonna bequeath you with a big pile of money?

the world is full of BBC's with aluminum tops, but an aluminum block is still -uh, kinda pricy.

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/big-block-anniversary-427.html

panZZer · #55 11-05-2015, 06:49 PM

I forgot to comment that's its also increasingly uncommon these days to see an 17 yr old that is even interested in this stuff.
I dream up stuff all the time, the difference is I know how to do half of it already, the rest I can figure out - that's only because Al Gore invented the intra net.