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  #1  
Old 01-31-2003, 01:41 AM
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Some suggestions for Open Discussion

A couple things occured to me after watching one of the France threads disappear and then reading BENZ-LGB's follow-up about closing the forum. I don't know if this is still relevant, seeing as how everything seems kosher again, and I'm not sure if the forum software even allows any of this, but here are my thoughts.

First, disable the ability of users to delete and edit posts. Making posts permanent for posterity's sake might make some people think twice before posting something they shouldn't. If a user says something offensive, insulting, or just plain wrong, and they want to correct it, they ought to have to post a follow-up apology or correction. If they don't correct it, it ought to be out there for everyone to see. This is how real life works, and I think it should be appropriate here.

(Incidentally, I don't think this should apply to the tech forums, if only because of the need to have as little technical misinformation floating out there as possible.)

Second, wholesale deletion of a thread should be the absolute LAST resort of the moderators. I would much rather see a thread locked up and left alone than have content just disappear. If there's a problem user, they should get the warning/probation/expulsion treatment. If the thread is simply degenerating, moderators should post a warning then lock the discussion. Maybe there should be a hard limit on the number of forum guideline violations a discussion could produce before it's automatically locked.

Only after the thread's been locked, and then determined to be so damaging that it poses a liability to (or violates the principles of) the site, should it be deleted.

Finally, this forum is only as good as the people contributing to it. The other forums have done very well, mostly thanks to an enormous number of willing, eager, and thoughtful posters. Why should it have to be different here, I don't know. All I know is this: if the majority of people come here to rant, then this will be nothing more than a backwater collection of complaints. If the majority of people come here to bash others, then this will be nothing more than a backwater collection of abusive posts.

On the other hand, if people treat this place as being vaguely important to them (as it must be, since it has the third highest number of posts, next to Tech and Diesel), then it could go back to being a decent, comfortable place to share our collective wisdom.

Anyways, those are my thoughts. That and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee.

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  #2  
Old 01-31-2003, 07:36 AM
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AnthonyB, Since you mention the France threads and the first one was only the initial post and DrAMG making a sarcastic comment and closing it.. and the action happened on my thread I think it appropriate that I get to post the first reply...

You suggest limiting the USERS power over their own posts/ thread.....

First, it sounds like you are acting either from an accumulation of complaints about users actions or you missdiagnosed what the problem was in my ' France' thread and the DRAMG Locked thread.

The abuse of power and inappropriate posting was being done by two moderators...

The original and my thread were about the Country of France's attitude...

Those same two moderators hijacked my thread about France to rant about 1. our supposed France abuse and 2. responding to percieved accusations of heavyhandedness by the moderators....

That is why I deleted it and restarted it.. because it was not about that... and it was my thread...

In the rules of conduct what was done by the moderators was breaking the rules.. this is in addition to the first breach of etiquete and power of closing the first thread.

To treat this medium as if it is Paper, where you can not correct what is left for view would be the same as belonging to the flat earth society....

I offer as support of my analysis the reaction and posts which TXBill has shared...as long time moderator he has seen both sides of this sort of stuff and I am pleased that his reaction was the same as mine (and others)....

In summary, it would be silly to change the rules for the users when this was an isolated misjudgment by a couple of moderators.....
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  #3  
Old 01-31-2003, 09:04 AM
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leathermang,

i know you are referring to a couple of my posts on your thread that got deleted. i would appreciate it if you addressed me directly for those past events because i do hold myself accountable. i was very careful about preserving threads and learned early on about thread locking (TXBill made some pretty succint remarks about that business). FYI i never deleted any posts nor locked up a thread after that first time. I spent my time trying to figure out how to defuse problems as they showed up - as it turns out, an exercise in futility.

maybe your thread was indeed hijacked, my sincere apologies for having done that. i don't know if that will placate you but you seem intent on dredging up those incidents.

in the meantime, it seems that the topic of really mean spirited posts have been covered up and we are all pretending that everything is copacetic. what's going to prevent those from showing up again? you had pointed something out about my deadpan / tongue in cheek delivery and yes, maybe a "" will sometimes go a long way . it's just that some of the posts i have seen just can not be misconstrued as being all in fun no matter how many smilies you put on them.

my belief is that the disturbances come from a handfull of members who do not like to be told what to do. i actually had misgivings about posting the rules of conduct as a sticky as i knew that would really annoy certain people. i would have preferred it to be part of the FAQ and terms of use with maybe just a reminder about it somewhere. i did give it some thought and just did what i was asked to do despite premonitions that i would probably be crucified for it.

as you may have guessed, TXBill had been mentoring me all along and he had warned me about what a thankless job it was. some of the senior members also sent me sage words of advice for which i am most appreciative.

as anthonyb said "this forum is only as good as the people contributing to it" and with that i agree wholeheartedly.
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Last edited by jsmith; 01-31-2003 at 09:15 AM.
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  #4  
Old 01-31-2003, 09:15 AM
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If people layed off the political threads, I think we would have less "problems". You're going to have difference of oppinions causing flames from one person to another. This is why I don't reply in any threads dealing with war, countries, or political parties.
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  #5  
Old 01-31-2003, 09:34 AM
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AnthonyB brought up suggested changes which were directed at members use when the anticendent for his post was my thead.. which some may not have seen all of due to my deleting...
So I am not dredging up anything... I am trying to explain MY actions, which appear to be critizised by AnthonyB....
You were posting towards Benz-LGB about thread moderation and his percieved attack on you... my thread was about France's attitude, a continuation of the thought which was locked ( only after DRAMG posted a sarcastic remark)... and you calling people cowards for posting and running should have been directed towards him for the original " sin" in this ruckus...
My thread was " hijacked' and I used the few tools which I had to try to clean up the story line... you were mad at others instead of posting your thoughts about France and DRAMG was clearly taking personal offense about a thread about a foreign country.. whose worst adjective that I know of was the word " arrogant' Pretty mild stuff ( considering the entire world already knows it to be true) to elicite a thread lock....

EDIT.. and a good use of it since it places it next to JSmith's question....
Joe, You did not even owe me a formal apology once you agreed to my description that you were posting in anger....and and those disappeared with the other off topic posts... I am not upset with you at all... the whole deal was over yesterday with , overall, pretty good discussion of parameters and responsibilities coming out of it......

Last edited by leathermang; 01-31-2003 at 11:21 AM.
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  #6  
Old 01-31-2003, 09:43 AM
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so what, you do not accept my apology?
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  #7  
Old 01-31-2003, 09:47 AM
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What is the point of an "open forum" if we're going to limit and censor what topics we can discuss on it? Everyone knows what the open forum is, and if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. No one is here by accident.

Occasionally insults and flames will fly, and that is wrong, and the offending users should be warned...Those who can't handle spirited debate without hurling insults and slurs should just stick to the other forums, and if they don't, they could be blocked from this forum after X-number of warnings from a moderator.

98% of the members here are capable of mature, reasonable discussion and debate, and that is usually what goes on. Must we really be so touchy-feely about it? Don't let a few bad apples ruin it for everyone!

Mike
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  #8  
Old 01-31-2003, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
98% of the members here are capable of mature, reasonable discussion and debate, and that is usually what goes on
And the other 2% are from Eastman and Warner Robins, GA - LOL.

I have been reading all these post the past 24 or so hours (went to work 5:30 am Thursday morning and go hom at ar ound 7 am). Big maintenance job going on at work. We have had 7 millwrights/riggers working since yesterday morning changing extraction plates, rotors and a coupe big gearboxes on a reel pulper system. Job should finish up before midnight tonite. Anyway my brain aches and it is taking me forever to type this but I just wanted to speak up for us 2%'ers.
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  #9  
Old 01-31-2003, 10:48 AM
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HAAHAHAA...Some probably consider ME a member of that 2% also...but I strive to maintain a civil debate...There is never a need for insults. On the other hand, I feel that people have gotten WAY to sensitive and touchy-feely about this stuff. If someone doesn't like what is being talked about, no one is forcing them to read any particular thread.

Sorry to hear you're working so hard down there...I hope it eases up on you soon! Have you had time to get the 300D going yet?

Mike
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  #10  
Old 01-31-2003, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by engatwork
And the other 2% are from Eastman and Warner Robins, GA - LOL.

but I just wanted to speak up for us 2%'ers.
Wow!! There's another member from Eastman other than me!?!? Who is he? I might know him!!!
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  #11  
Old 01-31-2003, 11:06 AM
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JSmith, You already said yesterday you were PO'd when replying to Benz_LGB, that by itself was sufficient for me...... and you quit the moderator job saying it was messing with your mind.. I was never even 'mad' at you ... I was just trying to keep my thread on subject (with limited tools)... and once you agreed with me as to that I thought we had gone on... maybe you missed my post yesterday to you after your statement... but today I had to describe what I saw as happening because AnthonyB was suggesting something directed at users when the blowup yesterday was not caused by users... that is all, but I said it today to AnthonyB because of his (missdirected solution) suggestions...
What would be really nice is if each thread starter could delete individual posts , then the thread starter could be held accountable for what is posted... and the moderators would not have such headaches.. some caused by real violations reports, and some of reports of imaginary violations....
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  #12  
Old 01-31-2003, 11:08 AM
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PaulC, Thank you , well put.
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  #13  
Old 01-31-2003, 11:13 AM
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I think the inability to refrain from flames and insults is what causes problems...I don't care how many "smileys" follow the retorts!

You could start a thread praising the benevolent works of the Ku Klux Klan if you wanted. I could put my 2 cents worth in the argument, and be fine with that.

But some here feel if such a thread existed that it would be their absolute duty to volley out the "N" word as a response, via a post or private e-mail.

That is where the real problem resides. Words do indeed reflect differently on paper than spoken. "Smileys" are ignored at that point if the retort seem downright mean!

For those that might take this point personally, even if your responses are in jest, consider that in a typical heated debate, when one debater senses a losing battle, they resort to name calling (remember SNL "Jane, you ignorant slut!").

The moderators may have been a bit trigger-happy at times, but considering the vast demographic content of the members in this forum, it is possible to voice disapproval of some political issue, country, or individual without getting personal.

What gets people in trouble here is the lack of restraint in generalizing a particular culture, religion, race, country, etc. ("That's why you Canadians are...", or No wonder Jews do...") and so on. We need to quell these types of responses.

If we want to keep this forum alive, keep initiating controversial issues, but leave the "yo Mamma" comments at home!
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  #14  
Old 01-31-2003, 11:29 AM
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G-Benz, another well executed post.. thanks...

That is what I was trying to do yesteday, keep out the flames towards each other, or past actions, but with the only tool I had.. but AnthonyB suggested today that the software should be changed to where I could not have done that.. or correct spelling or anything else... people make mistakes and should be able to try to correct them... I assume that is part of the reason that " edited by" with a time is included when a post is changed...

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Only a fool never changes his mind......

live and Learn ( and edit to cover your mistakes )
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  #15  
Old 01-31-2003, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by G-Benz
If we want to keep this forum alive, keep initiating controversial issues, but leave the "yo Mamma" comments at home!
Well put!

Mike

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1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
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1985 300TD
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1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
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www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
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