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  #1  
Old 05-16-2001, 10:12 PM
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I am in the process of having the timing chains and all the guide rails on my new 92 500E replaced (95,000 miles). As previously reported, it began to make that dreaded subtle noise on startup first thing in the morning.

My question is can the timing chain cover be replaced without removing the heads??

As I understand the details, to reinstall the timing chain cover, a new lower pan gasket was cut to fit just the front portion so that the rear lower pan did not require being removed. This created a tight fit when replacing the timing chain cover. During the installation process, the timing chain cover cracked.

This has reportedly happened on two previous timing chain cover replacements on other M119 motors. Is this a common problem encountered during this type of repairs? The proposal is to weld repair the cover and reinstall.

As the rear main seal has a minor leak & the shifter bushings are known to be quite worn, it has been suggested that we now pull the heads & the motor out of the car.

Is this necessary?
Can the timing chain cover be replaced with out pulling the heads?
Can we check the valve guides with the heads still on the engine?
Is it easier to replace the rear main seal by simply pulling the tranny instead of the motor?

The labor is being done at no cost.

Any guidance would be appreciated.

PS: what are the book hours to replace all of the rails, plus the tensioner & chain?



[Edited by dwight hinton on 05-17-2001 at 07:18 AM]
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  #2  
Old 07-20-2001, 02:30 AM
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Here is a comparative experience, at least:

I just had the timing chain replaced on my '92 500E, by a dealer, at 103K miles. The engine and trans stayed in the car. The heads stayed on. The cams were removed and replaced. I don't think the radiator was pulled. The front cover was pulled, but I was not made aware of any gasket mods. The mechanic gave me a copy of a diagram page in the service manual - B. Engine 199.97/98, Page 2, "copyright DaimlerChrysler AG 18.06.2001 CD-Ausgabe G/05/01..."

It shows the layout of the chain and rails. He replaced the six upper rails (the smaller ones), and the tensioner, but NOT the lower rails (parts 3 and 29 on the diagram).

Total cost was $1,511.33 labor and 452.98 parts.

That was about 1,600 miles ago, and I just heard the dreaded clatter again yesterday.
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  #3  
Old 07-20-2001, 04:28 AM
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What exactly does this clatter sound like?

All this talk about timing chain rails gets me paranoid given the cost of the repairs if not attended to in time...

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  #4  
Old 07-20-2001, 09:52 PM
Southern_Son
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rainmaker, have you ever heard a loose clatter within 1 or 2 seconds of the engine starting and then subside after oil pressure builds? That is a loose chain. Remedy is usually to just 'roll one in'. A simple process accomplished by removing a valve cover (if no other parts need replacing).
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Old 07-20-2001, 09:55 PM
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Has anyone had the oil pump check valve replaced? As I understand it, it's an updated item that can cause some of these symptoms.

My car, when stone cold, clatters for about half a second. I'm going to do the check valve first and see where that gets me.
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  #6  
Old 07-21-2001, 12:16 AM
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Michael,

You got a part number for that updated part? A price estimate would be nice as well.

Thanks!
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  #7  
Old 07-21-2001, 12:38 AM
BlackE55
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Another possible source for clatter

I don't have a 500E (wish I did, maybe soon). Anyhow, there's the possibility it might be a rocker arm. Just a thought...

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  #8  
Old 07-21-2001, 01:41 AM
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The clatter is a very distinct noise that sounds like, well, low oil pressure on moving parts. It happens on cold starts, and lasts just a few seconds. Get in your car, turn off the stereo and the ventilation fan, roll down the windows and wait for the buzzer to stop, then start it up. If the starter noise and the engine firing makes you smile, then you don't have a problem! Mine has the clatter and lifter noise as well. Note I just switched to Mobil 1 with the timing chain replacement.

I'm not so sure the clatter is always the timing chain. I just had mine replaced, including the upper tensioners, and heard the noise again 1600 miles later. There is a post here somewhere that suggests that the variable valve timing gear will be noisy until oil pressure builds, and that the check valve in the oil pump(?) or in the oil filter housing(?) is there primarily to keep the top end pressure up when the engine's off. Also, in the same post, a service bulletin was referred to on replacing o-rings on the lifters with upgraded parts. I'm bringing mine back in at 105K to get it right. Anyone have any other ideas?
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  #9  
Old 07-21-2001, 11:35 AM
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We have replaced the oil filter check valve, as in the bulletin, on two cars. The problem has yet to reoccur. It turned out that in both cases the updated part was already installed. Both cars had sat for some period before the problem occured. Both cars rattled for way more than a couple seconds. They were both towed in. Neither were 500Es. One was an 500SEL (1993) the other was a SL500 (a 95 or 96)
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  #10  
Old 07-22-2001, 10:32 PM
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Dwight, as in all things (usually) there is simple method of checking chain stretch. Pull valve covers and look at difference between line up of each cam mark. Rotate the flywheel to see if it takes more than 10 degrees difference in the two to line each up respectively (just a ballpark figure, nothing in manual but a good rule nevertheless). I have read some articles that profess this method by experienced mechanics.
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  #11  
Old 07-23-2001, 07:08 PM
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Michael & Steve,

Both of you have referred to check valves as a source of possible contribution to my racka-racka.

Michael, is there a service bulletin number or a procedure for this as a reference (sources refer to a part number 119.180.0015 for some $50 & I have the CD's for the 500E). As I understand it, the oil pump check valve is located at the oil pump inside the oil pan which can be accessed by removing the lower oil pan. How complicated is replacing the oil pump check valve?

Steve, is there a service bulletin number or a procedure for this as a reference (sources refer to a part number 116.187.0055 for a $1.00). AS I understand it, the oil filter check valve is at the bottom of the oil filter houseing and is therefore relatively easy to replace. How complicated is operation? Is it in the CD's that I have for the 500E?

We will attempt the easier & less expensive part first and if that fails, proceed to the other.

Thanks for all the advise.

In the meantime, it still runs like a screamer. Last week during a leasure return from Hotlanta, a 5.0 Mustang was taunting us, we finally gave in, nodded, and away we went. At 140, we were able to very very comfortably move over into the left lane. As we slowed, he eventually caught up, nodded, smiled, and we both continued our leasure trip. This is truly an incredible machine.

Mark, by any chance do you have access to the service bulletin number referred to in your post.

Thanks again

Dwight
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  #12  
Old 07-23-2001, 08:55 PM
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I'll try to go a little more in depth with you. The timing cover requires sealant on the mating surfaces when reinstalled. If you have more sealant in some areas than others, when you tighten down the cover is 'loaded' unevenly and can, indeed, crack. You must be careful to tighten easily and evenly as the cover seats. Also, I used a very small amount of sealant, (read, darn small amount, no more than a film). I have no leaks.

Secondly, you will have to remove heads if the part of the head gasket that extends out over the timing cover gets violated. There should be a thin film of grease applied on this part of head gasket to facilitate separation of cover from gasket.

The rear main seal must be positioned to center with a runout dial gauge. During this centering you need plenty of access (room) and therefore I would recommend pulling engine and transmission. This is very easy. This whole job start to finish can easily be done in a weekend. Go get some railroad ties, take a chain saw and cut them into two foot lengths to prop the car into position. You need an engine puller with a leveling bracket. Have shop evacuate A/C, disconnect battery, undo exhaust, remove transmission connections, remove grounding strap, remove front tire for access to 3 wires on starter, undo O2 sensor, go to front of car and remove condensor, radiator, various engine hookups, fuel lines, hoses and pull it out of there. It really is very simple. Take a digital camera and photograph all hookups marked with different colored tie wraps and you should have no problems.
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  #13  
Old 07-24-2001, 01:06 AM
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Hi All:

Try disconnecting your air-injection pump and see if the noise goes away. Mine did but the "check engine" warning light came on and I had to keep resetting it monthly. Now I just put up with the noise, which goes away after about 3 minutes when the pump shuts off.
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