anyone tried Enviro-safe refrigerant in a 126? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

alabbasi · #1 05-02-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WDBCB20

bla bla bla

Read it a couple of times, i'm sure it will make sense to you eventually. If not, oh well.

bcolins · #2 05-02-2012, 12:44 PM

Trying to make sense of the quote posted by WDBCB20.

after reading it a few times,....I am wondering if the remarks in bold are added to the original comments,......or were they part of the original quote?

JamesDean · #3 05-02-2012, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcolins

Trying to make sense of the quote posted by WDBCB20.

after reading it a few times,....I am wondering if the remarks in bold are added to the original comments,......or were they part of the original quote?

It appears that they were added to the original posts. They are WDB's remarks on alabassi's statements.

alabbasi · #4 05-02-2012, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcolins

Trying to make sense of the quote posted by WDBCB20.

after reading it a few times,....I am wondering if the remarks in bold are added to the original comments,......or were they part of the original quote?

Yep, smart arse responses such as the one posted contribute nothing to the conversation. Unfortunately, every now and then, trolls like him venture out of the open discussion forum and pollute the technical sections. It really shouldn't be tolerated.

Kestas · #5 05-01-2012, 09:09 AM

I've never heard of "too much vacuum" before charging. "No vacuum" is downright silly.

I think HC refrigerants (propane-butane mix) are a good idea. But I wouldn't listen to the rep any further than that.

bcolins · #6 05-01-2012, 09:42 AM

Here is a quote from Auto Refrigerants.com (and what I was told yesterday). This regarding their colder industrial variant,.....I'll check with ES to see if it applies to the Regular ES-12a

Introducing our newer "Industrial 12a" in the cans. (pictured here) The picture shows the original 8 oz. cans but these are the new 6 oz. cans. Each 6 oz.can of it is equivalent to 18 oz./Freon or 16 oz./134a. It is even colder than the regular ES-12a! It is a slightly higher pressure product and may be charged into a medium vac, a shallow vac or even zero vac. That makes it virtually mistake-proof, unless you over-charge the system. If you think the regular formula is cold (and it most certainly is), this Industrial 12a will amaze and delight.

alabbasi · #7 05-01-2012, 12:22 PM

It's propane, a spark will ignite it in the same way that a spark will fire up my grill. But really, i'm not interested in the conversation if it's going this direction.

It's been talked to death in plenty of threads already.

JamesDean · #8 05-01-2012, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alabbasi

But really, i'm not interested in the conversation if it's going this direction.

It's been talked to death in plenty of threads already.

Agreed. I was just quoting from the MSDS data. No intention of sparking a debate on chemical properties and such.

JHZR2 · #9 07-10-2013, 10:52 PM

On a pelican Porsche board, there is mention of always pulling a deep vacuum, even if using ES-12a, and then just slowly charging until vent temps go down... In other words, rely upon temperature, not pressure to ensure that the system is charged, and then you wont be overcharged.

I assume that the starting from deep vacuum bit just implies that the static equilibria of the ES-12a at ambient temperatures when the system was vacuumed is such that too much could actually enter the system. While I can see that this might be the case from the basis of thermodynamics and P1V1=P2V2, where P is the same and V just substantially grew, careful, slow installation of ES-12a should prevent any overcharge.

So then the question really becomes one of if it is better for the system to be vacuumed or not. ES says it doenst matter because the HCs dont break down, and their odorant doesnt contain sulfur compounds that will form acids. Still, I prefer the concept of a bone dry system regardless, and would rather see a deep vacuum.

Has anyone successfully charged ES-12a from a bone dry, deep vacuum system? Uncle Rico on the Pelican Porsche board has done so and done some tests, but I dont think he contributes there anymore...

JamesDean · #10 07-10-2013, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHZR2

On a pelican Porsche board, there is mention of always pulling a deep vacuum, even if using ES-12a, and then just slowly charging until vent temps go down... In other words, rely upon temperature, not pressure to ensure that the system is charged, and then you wont be overcharged.

I assume that the starting from deep vacuum bit just implies that the static equilibria of the ES-12a at ambient temperatures when the system was vacuumed is such that too much could actually enter the system. While I can see that this might be the case from the basis of thermodynamics and P1V1=P2V2, where P is the same and V just substantially grew, careful, slow installation of ES-12a should prevent any overcharge.

So then the question really becomes one of if it is better for the system to be vacuumed or not. ES says it doenst matter because the HCs dont break down, and their odorant doesnt contain sulfur compounds that will form acids. Still, I prefer the concept of a bone dry system regardless, and would rather see a deep vacuum.

Has anyone successfully charged ES-12a from a bone dry, deep vacuum system? Uncle Rico on the Pelican Porsche board has done so and done some tests, but I dont think he contributes there anymore...

If you want to charge ES-12A into a vacuum you should buy the "Industrial" ES-12A that is meant to be charged into a vacuum. They say it is cooler than the normal ES-12A..

Enviro-Safe Refrigerants

Also found this:
Industrial ES12A= 40 degrees F

JHZR2 · #11 07-11-2013, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesDean

If you want to charge ES-12A into a vacuum you should buy the "Industrial" ES-12A that is meant to be charged into a vacuum. They say it is cooler than the normal ES-12A..

Enviro-Safe Refrigerants

Also found this:
Industrial ES12A= 40 degrees F

Yeah, Ive read their site pretty extensively. I see all about how air supposedly wont harm anything (it will likely oxidize the lube oils faster), moisture isnt a concern, etc. But you still have a diluent and moisture in there, only raising head pressures and not actually doing anything for cooling. If anything, it should reduce performance.

They claim its all about overcharging, which is OK, in theory that may be the case, as there is less volume for the refrigerant to go into if there is 14.7psi of air in there...

But my question goes back to why, if someone is careful, can they not fill into a vacuum? Notionally these guys are saying its OK because of either liability (propane pressure runaway) or some performance aspect that a layperson may create. But for someone careful and with half decent skill, there is no reason, IMO to not fill from a vacuum.

You just dont fill a huge bulk right away, and you dont let the system equilibrate through the gauges... Of course that is why everything is valved, as ANY system can be overcharged, and one should always be monitoring vent temps on a fill.

Quote:

Charging hydrocarbons into a hard vac increases cooling but also makes it easy to overcharge. Here's the only way to charge ANY AC system.

Best done on the hottest day of the year! Since we can't do that, drive the car about 10 miles to heat up all the components in the vehicle. Evacuate. Engine off, add 60% of the calculated charge requirement. Run AC on high fan and max recirc cool, doors open. Provide as much auxillary air flow through condensers as possible. It will never be as good as running down the road. Set to 1600 rpm and crack open the can valve/gauge valve for 1 second at a time, allow system to stabilize for 4 minutes and watch the vent temp come down. Add another squirt, stabilize and read temp. It is easy to overcharge. go slow, a squirt at a time. Repeat until vent temp gets coldest. When adding one more squirt raises the vent temp ONE degree. System is full. This works on any refrigerant. Might take an hour.

Depends on the car, most will pull 40* in one pass across the coil, even with 134 if working correctly. You can put one thermometer at the cabin air intake under the dash (recirculated) and one in the dash output vent. Compare. The most important thing is that the condenser cannot be too big. Always use the largest possible, or two, and the best airflow possible. Sure a small condenser will cool you if you can blow enough air through it, but we can't in traffic so we need more condenser and big electric fans.

If your car is not as cool check the climate control system is not putting out heat. Maybe you have bad TXV, that is common. Remember that thing is constantly moving all the time the AC is running and they do wear out.

Remember vent temps after the cabin cools down are not indicative of what is really happening. Try to measure the "delta drop" of one pass across the cooling coils if you are that concerned. OIl charge is critical. Too much oil decreases cooling. Oil won't cool like refrigerant. I like to flush the entire system and reoil before charging.

New refrigerant - Page 5 - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

alabbasi · #12 07-10-2013, 11:07 PM

As mentioned in a couple of my earlier posts, I pulled down a vacuum for about 40 minutes which should be enough in my case as I did not open my system up.

Again, on some cars, ES-12a worked pretty well while on others, not so much. A/C performance on cars which produced mediocre results with ES-12a improved vastly with R12.

I use it now mostly for testing purposes as some leaks appear under pressure. You may get good luck with it in NJ as it doesn't get as hot as it does here in TX.

Good luck!

compu_85 · #13 07-14-2013, 11:04 AM

So I got some ES12 for my SDL. The seller on eBay included a nice little note on the top of the box:

Perhaps he was sniffing too much of the stuff

Anyway... I hope to get this charged up today. It will be very hot out so that should work well. I'll report back!

-J

compu_85 · #14 07-14-2013, 10:18 PM

So I worked on getting the system charged... results are disappointing.

Pressures:

I had a carpet blower and hose misting the condenser.

The suction line is cool to the touch, as is the compressor body. Compressor, condenser, and TX Valve are new... I'm wondering if the "highest quality" URO expansion valve isn't working right?

:/

-J

JamesDean · #15 07-14-2013, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by compu_85

So I worked on getting the system charged... results are disappointing.

Pressures:

I had a carpet blower and hose misting the condenser.

The suction line is cool to the touch, as is the compressor body. Compressor, condenser, and TX Valve are new... I'm wondering if the "highest quality" URO expansion valve isn't working right?

:/

-J

If I'm reading your gauges right, 30 PSI Low? 150 PSI high?

IIRC you charge ES-12A based on R12 pressures minus 15 psi on high side..

ACKits says for R12 @ 80F, 18 Psi Low, 170-210 Psi High.

ES-12A says it will run 15 psi lower on high side so you "real" range is 155-195 Psi.

As an FYI, R134A says 80F is 40-50Psi, 175-210 Psi.

Did you charge into a vacuum?
Did you use the "regular" ES-12A? or the "industrial" ES-12A?

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