anyone tried Enviro-safe refrigerant in a 126? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JamesDean · #16 05-01-2012, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alabbasi

But really, i'm not interested in the conversation if it's going this direction.

It's been talked to death in plenty of threads already.

Agreed. I was just quoting from the MSDS data. No intention of sparking a debate on chemical properties and such.

WDBCB20 · #17 05-02-2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alabbasi

alabbasi Post#1 ES-12a is propane. Actually it is not. It is a blend of hydrocarbons I've used it on a couple of cars and it's hit and miss. "It" apparently being the refrigerant.

On my old 1991 560SEL, it worked well. On my 88 560SEC, it's hit and miss (past 90 degrees it sucks). "It" apparently being the refrigerant.
On my latest 560SEC purchase, which was converted to R134, it blew cool but not cold. I sucked it out and installed ES-12a, it was not cold at all. So I sucked it out and put R12 in and it blew cold. "It" apparently being the refrigerant.

So on this one car which I suspect has a marginally working A/C system
R134 is cool
ES-12a is ineffective
R12 is cold.

I just charged a buddy's 300SD this weekend and it worked quite well. "It" being the refrigerant? and if so which one?

alabbasi Post#2 I charged all the cars and all the gases the same way by pulling a vac for at least 40 mins and then charging. Wherewith consistently employing a methodology expressly contraindicated by the hydrocarbon refrigerant manufacturer for their product. I get consistent results with R12 but not with ES-12a which is why I say it's hit and miss. "It" apparently being the refrigerant.

Being that it's cheap, it's worth trying. "It" apparently being the refrigerant.
But from my findings, it does not work as well as R12 in all applications and if you're going to spend any money on the a/c system, then it may be worthwhile converting to R134. The consensus on (which has been arrived at by considerable waste of time and money) use of R134 in the old MB R12 systems for which they were not designed is immediate or rapid deterioration to sub par cooling ending in shortened life of the system.

alabbasi Post#3 As I said, I think it depends on the system more then the gas. Actually, this is the first time you say this. In the previous posts as revealed above you appear to indict the refrigerant, not the system, and the take away the reader is left with is that ES-12a is not recommended which you then somewhat reinforce once again here: On marginal systems it does not seem to work well , whereas R12 makes up for the inefficiencies. I don't think this is unusual, some cars which are converted to R134 which worked really well and others that did not. My old 6.9 was like that. It would freeze you out.

I'd just want to join Brian Carlton in urging more care and accuracy in our written contributions to the site which, many of us access to help us make repair and purchase (time and $)decisions. Refrigeration especially is rife with so many variables and unless you are (strictly) controlling for all of them you're merely left with anecdote the plural of which does not make data.

bcolins · #18 05-02-2012, 11:43 AM

Wondering if those who got poor results are using the standard ES-12a AND Pulling a deep vacuum. Envirosafe states clearly, that with the non-industrial ES-12a with dye, that little or no vacuum should be pulled. Pulling a vacuum with the non-industrial ES-12a will make it ineffective. (According to Zach at Enviro-safe.

alabbasi · #19 05-02-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WDBCB20

bla bla bla

Read it a couple of times, i'm sure it will make sense to you eventually. If not, oh well.

bcolins · #20 05-02-2012, 12:44 PM

Trying to make sense of the quote posted by WDBCB20.

after reading it a few times,....I am wondering if the remarks in bold are added to the original comments,......or were they part of the original quote?

JamesDean · #21 05-02-2012, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcolins

Trying to make sense of the quote posted by WDBCB20.

after reading it a few times,....I am wondering if the remarks in bold are added to the original comments,......or were they part of the original quote?

It appears that they were added to the original posts. They are WDB's remarks on alabassi's statements.

JamesDean · #22 05-02-2012, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcolins

Wondering if those who got poor results are using the standard ES-12a AND Pulling a deep vacuum. Envirosafe states clearly, that with the non-industrial ES-12a with dye, that little or no vacuum should be pulled. Pulling a vacuum with the non-industrial ES-12a will make it ineffective. (According to Zach at Enviro-safe.

Whenever I used the ES-12A stuff I never pulled a vacuum.

My first "experiment" was on my 190E where the R12 leaked out less than a year after it was charged (2006, leaked out in early 2007).

After that I had my shop charge it with Freeze12 which also leaked out about a year later.

Finally I said the hell with it and that I'd give up. I didnt have money at the time to re-build the a/c system. I came across ES-12A and at the time it was $40. I said what the hell, we'll see what happens.

I bought a set of manifold gauges to attempt a more proper charge. I figured they'd come in handy on any of the other MB's here too. I charged it up and been working ever since.

My center vents output a nice temperature in the high 30's. Its refreshingly cold.

Hit Man X · #23 05-02-2012, 07:08 PM

Just use R12, it is about $10/lb if you know how to shop... cheaper than the street price or 134A which is $10/12oz.

alabbasi · #24 05-02-2012, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcolins

Trying to make sense of the quote posted by WDBCB20.

after reading it a few times,....I am wondering if the remarks in bold are added to the original comments,......or were they part of the original quote?

Yep, smart arse responses such as the one posted contribute nothing to the conversation. Unfortunately, every now and then, trolls like him venture out of the open discussion forum and pollute the technical sections. It really shouldn't be tolerated.

RANDY P · #25 05-02-2012, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alabbasi

Yep, smart arse responses such as the one posted contribute nothing to the conversation. Unfortunately, every now and then, trolls like him venture out of the open discussion forum and pollute the technical sections. It really shouldn't be tolerated.

I agree. What the heck is it with this place- everyone chiming in to try to one-up someone by trying to sound smart and "technical"?

Happens a lot in this forum. I once had a dork in the vintage section get mad at me for suggesting to chain a coil to avoid it from flying out during rear suspension disassembly. Ya, know, so the operator doesn't get killed by a flying spring?

His excuse? - That I've never worked on a Wxxx EDIT: it was a W111

PS - armchair wrenches: You have NO RIGHT to comment if you've never been dirty working on a car. Yes, regurgitation of popular internet mythology only read and not experienced should not be allowed. Grammar Nazis fall into this same category.

JHZR2 · #26 07-10-2013, 10:52 PM

On a pelican Porsche board, there is mention of always pulling a deep vacuum, even if using ES-12a, and then just slowly charging until vent temps go down... In other words, rely upon temperature, not pressure to ensure that the system is charged, and then you wont be overcharged.

I assume that the starting from deep vacuum bit just implies that the static equilibria of the ES-12a at ambient temperatures when the system was vacuumed is such that too much could actually enter the system. While I can see that this might be the case from the basis of thermodynamics and P1V1=P2V2, where P is the same and V just substantially grew, careful, slow installation of ES-12a should prevent any overcharge.

So then the question really becomes one of if it is better for the system to be vacuumed or not. ES says it doenst matter because the HCs dont break down, and their odorant doesnt contain sulfur compounds that will form acids. Still, I prefer the concept of a bone dry system regardless, and would rather see a deep vacuum.

Has anyone successfully charged ES-12a from a bone dry, deep vacuum system? Uncle Rico on the Pelican Porsche board has done so and done some tests, but I dont think he contributes there anymore...

JamesDean · #27 07-10-2013, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHZR2

On a pelican Porsche board, there is mention of always pulling a deep vacuum, even if using ES-12a, and then just slowly charging until vent temps go down... In other words, rely upon temperature, not pressure to ensure that the system is charged, and then you wont be overcharged.

I assume that the starting from deep vacuum bit just implies that the static equilibria of the ES-12a at ambient temperatures when the system was vacuumed is such that too much could actually enter the system. While I can see that this might be the case from the basis of thermodynamics and P1V1=P2V2, where P is the same and V just substantially grew, careful, slow installation of ES-12a should prevent any overcharge.

So then the question really becomes one of if it is better for the system to be vacuumed or not. ES says it doenst matter because the HCs dont break down, and their odorant doesnt contain sulfur compounds that will form acids. Still, I prefer the concept of a bone dry system regardless, and would rather see a deep vacuum.

Has anyone successfully charged ES-12a from a bone dry, deep vacuum system? Uncle Rico on the Pelican Porsche board has done so and done some tests, but I dont think he contributes there anymore...

If you want to charge ES-12A into a vacuum you should buy the "Industrial" ES-12A that is meant to be charged into a vacuum. They say it is cooler than the normal ES-12A..

Enviro-Safe Refrigerants

Also found this:
Industrial ES12A= 40 degrees F

alabbasi · #28 07-10-2013, 11:07 PM

As mentioned in a couple of my earlier posts, I pulled down a vacuum for about 40 minutes which should be enough in my case as I did not open my system up.

Again, on some cars, ES-12a worked pretty well while on others, not so much. A/C performance on cars which produced mediocre results with ES-12a improved vastly with R12.

I use it now mostly for testing purposes as some leaks appear under pressure. You may get good luck with it in NJ as it doesn't get as hot as it does here in TX.

Good luck!

JHZR2 · #29 07-11-2013, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesDean

If you want to charge ES-12A into a vacuum you should buy the "Industrial" ES-12A that is meant to be charged into a vacuum. They say it is cooler than the normal ES-12A..

Enviro-Safe Refrigerants

Also found this:
Industrial ES12A= 40 degrees F

Yeah, Ive read their site pretty extensively. I see all about how air supposedly wont harm anything (it will likely oxidize the lube oils faster), moisture isnt a concern, etc. But you still have a diluent and moisture in there, only raising head pressures and not actually doing anything for cooling. If anything, it should reduce performance.

They claim its all about overcharging, which is OK, in theory that may be the case, as there is less volume for the refrigerant to go into if there is 14.7psi of air in there...

But my question goes back to why, if someone is careful, can they not fill into a vacuum? Notionally these guys are saying its OK because of either liability (propane pressure runaway) or some performance aspect that a layperson may create. But for someone careful and with half decent skill, there is no reason, IMO to not fill from a vacuum.

You just dont fill a huge bulk right away, and you dont let the system equilibrate through the gauges... Of course that is why everything is valved, as ANY system can be overcharged, and one should always be monitoring vent temps on a fill.

Quote:

Charging hydrocarbons into a hard vac increases cooling but also makes it easy to overcharge. Here's the only way to charge ANY AC system.

Best done on the hottest day of the year! Since we can't do that, drive the car about 10 miles to heat up all the components in the vehicle. Evacuate. Engine off, add 60% of the calculated charge requirement. Run AC on high fan and max recirc cool, doors open. Provide as much auxillary air flow through condensers as possible. It will never be as good as running down the road. Set to 1600 rpm and crack open the can valve/gauge valve for 1 second at a time, allow system to stabilize for 4 minutes and watch the vent temp come down. Add another squirt, stabilize and read temp. It is easy to overcharge. go slow, a squirt at a time. Repeat until vent temp gets coldest. When adding one more squirt raises the vent temp ONE degree. System is full. This works on any refrigerant. Might take an hour.

Depends on the car, most will pull 40* in one pass across the coil, even with 134 if working correctly. You can put one thermometer at the cabin air intake under the dash (recirculated) and one in the dash output vent. Compare. The most important thing is that the condenser cannot be too big. Always use the largest possible, or two, and the best airflow possible. Sure a small condenser will cool you if you can blow enough air through it, but we can't in traffic so we need more condenser and big electric fans.

If your car is not as cool check the climate control system is not putting out heat. Maybe you have bad TXV, that is common. Remember that thing is constantly moving all the time the AC is running and they do wear out.

Remember vent temps after the cabin cools down are not indicative of what is really happening. Try to measure the "delta drop" of one pass across the cooling coils if you are that concerned. OIl charge is critical. Too much oil decreases cooling. Oil won't cool like refrigerant. I like to flush the entire system and reoil before charging.

New refrigerant - Page 5 - Pelican Parts Technical BBS