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  #46  
Old 11-29-2002, 10:21 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 25
excessive delayed 2 - 3 shift s appear not normal

Thanks to all who have been replying to this thread. Please keep it coming.

It appears that my problem is not normal, and that there is much confusion whether the delay in general is necessary.

As a result of all your feedback, I have written a note to MBZ of North America about this subject.

I feel it is time MBZ address this definitively for us.

Again, if there is someone who really understands the inner workings of this and can shed some light on this I would appreciate it.

Also, does anybody know where I can get a a good set of techincal/service manuals that would have tranny info included? Apparently MBZ have not yet put the the R129 onto CD's yet.
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_______________
'90 300SL
'90 190E 2.6
'87 300TE (gone to car heaven)
'84 190D (passed along...still in the family and used on a daily basis)
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  #47  
Old 11-30-2002, 05:44 AM
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Talking Doesn't happen on test drives

Reference to Holson Adi's comments, I had this same experience too, even at a big Mercedes outlet in an upmarket area. Tell you how they do it. The owner will drive the car around before you turn up so the big jerk is gone by the time you take it for a drive. After that it changes normally with only a small jerk which normally will not upset anyone except a Lexus owner. The Mercedes sales outlet gave me a story about the car being out of fuel and needed topping up before taking me for a test drive. He disappeared for about 30 minutes supposedly to a petrol station just around the corner. You bet he took it for a long drive to get rid of the huge jerky change as it was cold and not tested that day. What can I say??? The car operated normally and I found nothing against it. The place I got my car also did the same thing because they knew I was coming at a certain time. It didn't jerk until I took it home and started off next morning and they said nothing was wrong. Said they all do that. However if told before, I would not have signed the contract!
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  #48  
Old 11-30-2002, 09:16 AM
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so you rev it past 3100 or so and be done with it BTW, on Audi's at least, it stays on 1st and not on 2nd. this makes it even more annoying but at least you don't have to drive several blocks before you get the first shift, and you can rev it past 3k or so to get past it...
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1993 300e-2.8
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Last edited by jsmith; 11-30-2002 at 09:34 AM.
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  #49  
Old 11-30-2002, 09:50 AM
1992300e
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Back to basics

As stated way too many times already throughout this post the dealyed shift during warm up is intended to spead up warm up and assist with emissions controls. Totaly normal.

Looks like in this case the delayed shift is persisting after warm up in a sparatic sort of way. Sometimes warm it dealys and sometimes warm it does not. If I remember correctly the author indicated it had something to do with stopping and starting the car again which would either eliminate or cause the problem.

Do a search on delayed shifts. I am not a tranny man and am not sure what exactly could cause a delayed shift. I would think it could be either electrical (computer induced) or mechanical within the tranny housing it's self.

Sorry can't be of more help.
good luck,
Joel
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  #50  
Old 11-30-2002, 10:37 AM
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As stated way too many times already throughout this post the dealyed shift during warm up is intended to spead up warm up and assist with emissions controls. Totaly normal.

I think we realize this to be "normal" for MBZ trannies -

I think what many of us here are disappointed by is that OTHER cars of similar vintage (thus subject to THE SAME emission regualations) DO NOT have this "jerky" shifting. Why should MBZ be the only ones to do this? Like I've said before my '92Q shifts as smooth as butter right from the start no matter how cold it is! Why should my '92 400e have the "cold jerk?" - They are both '92 vintage and when new 400e listed at $12,000 MORE than the Q!!!!

Honestly the transmission performance is on par with the 89 Acura (honda) Legend I once had. Which by the way was a much cheaper car!

I know we can't really do much about it, I think it's more about venting! I might try Mobil 1 transmission fluid but I doubt it will do much (yes I know it's not on the MBZ list of approved fluids, I'll take my chances!).

Or maybe I should swap for a GM transmission? If only I could!
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  #51  
Old 11-30-2002, 10:58 AM
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our two family vehicles are the same vintage too and the other one is a mercury(nissan) van. i have more miles on the van yet the engine & drivetrain are smoother in operation than the benz. of course, the benz feels much more solid (hmmm, is that all?) but it's such a contrast considering that the benz cost twice as much as the van when new!
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1993 300e-2.8
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"Do not adjust your mind, it's reality that's malfunctioning"
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  #52  
Old 11-30-2002, 11:14 AM
1992300e
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deteriation of post

Looks as though this post has deteriated to a "Why doesn't my really really expensive Mercedes Benz drive as well as, or perform as reliably as my other really old cheap car?"

No arguement from me: I have, as you can see from my signature a bunch of old, beat down, used up cars. Day before Thanksgiving I wake up with what I think is tonsil-itus. It's 3:00am, I am in pain with high fever and desperate to get to the hospital. It snowed three inches and I jump into my benz. I get about 200 yards before I realize this car is useless in the snow. I turn around, get home and jump into my 1989 Nissan, turn the key and carve through the snow as if I was a snow plow.

Next morning I need to run to the store. Streets still snow covered, I jump into my 1987 Nissan, turn the key and five minutes later I am at the store.

I spent over $10,000 on my first and current Benz, 1992300e with 99,000 miles at purchase. So far I've done the following: Passenger side ball joint, both control rods, idler arm bushing, front springs and struts, recharged the AC, complete tune up, top timing chain cover seal, etc. Too do: leather pulling up on console, two paint spots need repair caused by dented trim.

I spent $25 dollars on my 1987 nissan, I've done the following: reset check engine light. AC is still ice cold, everything works and I get about 35 miles per gallon.

The Benz, along with my other vehicles are owned free and clear and I have committed to getting as many miles out of the car as possible.

It's been a great learning experience, will I buy another Benz? I can't think of a good reason why.

Keep the faith and enjoy the car you have.

Happy Holliday,
Joel
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  #53  
Old 11-30-2002, 12:42 PM
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Location: Battle Ground, WA
Posts: 576
Mercedes ownership...

Hi there,
After reading all the comments on this thread, I'm beginning to think that people must say to themselves "There goes a Mercedes owner, snicker, snicker!" I myself don't quite qualify, since my 1982 300D has had an engine/transmission transplant, which is a 1991 Astrovan V6 with T700R4 transmission. Since doing the conversion almost two years ago, I have had NO problems AT ALL with the drivetrain, and the car has much more power than it used to, still gets 28 mpg on the freeway at 75-85 MPH with the AC running, and around 20 mpg around town. The things I HAVE had trouble with are: Window motors not running due to bad switches, required switch replacement, Tach amplifier quits every so often and I have to replug the connector, Driver's door stop had to be replaced (Don't understand why they put the tach amp in the service connector to begin with!), rear window has a slight leak. I can put up with those nitty items, but I could not handle a power train problem, I need to use the car! I made two trips from the Portland, OR area to Vancouver, BC this last summer, and the car is a dream to drive on the freeway, will keep up with the best of the machines, and I always have a smile on my face when I park it, because it is in my opinion a "sleeper", an innocent looking car that does much more than expected. By the way, the conversion cost me under a thousand, and I haven't had to spend any money on the drive train since except for front brake pads. My wife has a 1994 Ford Taurus, which I must say I would have to compare your transmission challenged Mercedes vehicles to... I'm sure if there were more Mercedes on the highway and they were made in the US there would be a public outcry over many of the MB woes, and maybe a recall or two to fix some of the obvious design problems you are talking about. Our previous Mercedes was a '75 280, which had a herky-jerky but dead reliable transmission and engine.
Sorry to be so opinionated, but I don't understand why you insist on flogging a dead horse!

Regards,
Richard Wooldridge
'82 300D/4.3L V6
'94 Taurus (Wife's car, iffy transmission like a benz)
'88 Astrovan (solid as a rock!)
'77 Jag XJ6 (It's going to get a 4.3 one of these days also)
'77 280Z (Also solid as a rock)
'85 GMC S15 (Great little pickup)
'65 Clark Cortez (78 Caddie engine/transaxle transplant)
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  #54  
Old 11-30-2002, 01:52 PM
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Oh, but dead horsebeating is so much fun!!!!!!!! Isn't that what forums are all about?
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  #55  
Old 11-30-2002, 08:07 PM
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 280
Angry delayed shifts

Oldblue1 please send MBZ USA a full copy of this thread from start to end for them to chew on. Also please send same to MBZ in Germany headquarters for them to scratch their heads if they have one. Also give them this thread in Mercedesshop so they can open their shaded eyes to all the unhappy owners world wide and make better cars for all of us. I am sure they already know about all of their car's problems, but maybe there are some more we haven't heard of yet!!! Just keep it going, we are all enjoying all this venting!!!
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  #56  
Old 11-30-2002, 08:10 PM
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Maybe threads like this are the reason why MBZ tried to shut down both this and the Canandian forum (and unfortunately succeded at the latter)!
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  #57  
Old 11-30-2002, 10:14 PM
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Location: Greensboro, NC
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The fact that so many folks seem to be angry with MBZ is not the point I wish to make, or have made with MBZ.

It is the fact that there are two sides to this debate: is this delay shift behaviour normal, or abnormal? I have asked MBZ to tell us what is to be expected, so we can clear up our misconceptions.

I have asked MBZ to help me resolve my problem as it appears that the knowledgable and helpful members of this forum are unfamiliar with the answer to this particular problem.

I would like to resolve the problem I am having with my car, which I think is a fair request.

What I am seeking is some guidance as to how to troubleshoot my particular problem.

It appears that the symptoms I am experiencing are abnormal i.e. this happens EVEN AFTER it is warm, I accept that brighter minds than mine determined that it is better to warm up the catalytic converter, but my car's delay shift appears to be broken, that is, it seems to forget that it is already warmed up, or even hot. The design calls for it to happen until it is warm and then shift without a delay.

Once MBZ, if they ever dain to, respond, I will inform this community, and thus a learning experience for all of us.

For all those who have a problem with MBZ, take it up directly with them, and stop *****ing about the problem. If you don't like MBZ cars, why buy them? There are too many other reasonable options.

I, for one, really like mine and probably will buy another if I had the resources to do it, even though I am having some issues with this particular vehicle. This doesn't mean that all MBZ's are faulty...far from that, I have a stable of them and have enjoyed many driving hours in each, including this car.

If you are not willing to call it to the attention of the manufacturer, how do you ever think they will ever be able know about the issues.

Again, if anyone can help me troubleshoot or resolve my delay shift WHEN HOT, please help!
__________________
Don

_______________
'90 300SL
'90 190E 2.6
'87 300TE (gone to car heaven)
'84 190D (passed along...still in the family and used on a daily basis)

Last edited by oldblue1; 11-30-2002 at 10:47 PM.
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  #58  
Old 12-01-2002, 12:26 AM
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<>

On the delay systems I have worked on, the basic concept is:

The ECU sends an electrical signal [according to temp and speed sensor parameters for the ECU] to a Delay Switch-over valve. This is a vacuum flow valve that , when electrically energized, opens, allowing intake manifold vac to reach a shift element
[ servo]
at the tranny. Holding vac at this element delays the normal shift point.
So, if we have a delay after the ECU/s parameters have been attained [ warm temp-or rpm speed ] , we may have power going from the ECU to the SOV when not called for .
The simple test--- once warmed up, unplug the electric connector at the SOV and
test drive...If one finds this to be the case , the problem is ecu/sensor related..[ electrical /ecu problem]
The other test is to see if the SOV is ,in fact , allowing vac passage without being powered. This can be checked by simply testing for vac at both sides [inlet/outlet] . Quite possible to have the solinoid/plunger sticking in the open position [ crap/dirt].
This is a mechanical problem.
There is also a possible sticking element/cable at the tranny.
Point being, is the problem electrical, mechanical, sensor, etc. ???
Try these test to isolate the CAUSE , and you will be on your way...
PS -- A good tool to watch these systems workings is a vac gauge "T" hooked to the outlet of the SOV [ between trans/SOV] and the gauge laying on the wiper area [watching gauge through windshield] and a road test.. Knowing how the system works and relating that to what you see on the gauge in real time will tell ....

I am not sure if this is the same on your system, but it may be applicable
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  #59  
Old 12-01-2002, 10:34 AM
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Test procedures...

Arthur,

Many thanks for this info. I will go out and test it today.

//don
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'90 300SL
'90 190E 2.6
'87 300TE (gone to car heaven)
'84 190D (passed along...still in the family and used on a daily basis)
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  #60  
Old 12-02-2002, 05:46 PM
1992300e
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Nice response Arthur

I am looking forward to see how the diagnostics works out.

Thanks Arthur,
Joel
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