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  #16  
Old 09-20-2002, 07:52 AM
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John S (Blackmercedes):
A Topsider is only $12?
We are at $80/hour labor. Oil changes (when we do one, kinda going the way of rotary dial phones and safe sex) is .3 hours, so labor on an oil change is $24, half of that is $12.

Gilly
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  #17  
Old 09-20-2002, 08:00 AM
LarryBible
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If you are going to use this pump, you better have a REALLY GOOD drill! This pump is designed for removing a half quart, not 8 quarts. It's NOT designed to draw it 2 feet, only a couple of inches. An electric drill is not designed for high torque for extended periods of time.

A drill good enough to pump 8 quarts with this pump, without overheating, would cost way more than a topsider or other device.

Topsiders are very necessary in a marine application where you do not have access below. Every Benz I've ever seen has easy access below. The worst case scenario is removing 6 or 8 eight millimeter bolts and dropping the belly pan. Big Deal! I am completely baffled why there are so many people that don't want to to pull a few SMALL bolts and stick a drain pan underneath.

I'm sorry to be so anally retentive, but I just don't get it. Call me stupid!

Don't get me wrong. This is a free country and you can do whatever you want and it's fine with me. I'll even help you build one if I can. I'll help you use it if you're bent on doing so. I just can't understand why, that's all.

My $0.02,
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  #18  
Old 09-20-2002, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gillybenztech
John S (Blackmercedes):
A Topsider is only $12?
We are at $80/hour labor. Oil changes (when we do one, kinda going the way of rotary dial phones and safe sex) is .3 hours, so labor on an oil change is $24, half of that is $12.

Gilly
Now you're just being funny Dan!! .3 hours!! Chris Rock should be looking over his shoulder...

In my neck of the woods, an oil change is an hour's labour $87.00. Sometimes the dealer has a special on for $50, but then the Mobil 1 price is enough to make you faint.

On the C230, a simple oil change (NOT an A service) is close to $200 with taxes and disposal fees.

Anyone still wondering why I do it myself?
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  #19  
Old 09-20-2002, 11:31 AM
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I am suprised not one has mentioned that draining the oil through the plug leaves some amount of oil that supposedly the vacuum method gets. I understand is is as much as half a quart.

Call me what you want, but I want every drop out of the system I can possibly get. This is why I thought the vacuum system was empolyed. Ever heard this?
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  #20  
Old 09-20-2002, 12:51 PM
LarryBible
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There may be a few models in which there is some oil left in the pan when the plug is pulled out, but think about it! The plug is at the lowest point of the pan. Liquid goes "downhill."

Excepting for a few of the all aluminum pans that may have a gusset cast into them or something, there is no possible way that sucking it out through a tube will get more than draining out through the drain plug.

I want as much oil to drain out as I can get. That's why I pull the plug, preferably when it's hot and preferably let it drain overnight.

There are all sorts of ways to justify that sucking the oil through the dipstick tube is the thing to do, but if you think you will get MORE oil out that way, you are fooling yourself.

If you want to use a topsider I recommend that you change oil more often to make up for it.

My $0.02,
Change oil hot and change oil often,
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  #21  
Old 09-20-2002, 01:29 PM
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Lightbulb

Scitoma

The occipital (and lower part of the temporal) lobes are devoted to vision. Primary visual cortex is directly related to sight, and damage to it produces a hole in a persons visual field Ö a scitoma.

A scitoma is sometimes used as a metaphor to both reflect a perception disorder, and, by extension, to imply that due to this disorder one just canít understand certain things.

Generally stating that someone has a scitoma it is not intended as an insult, but just as an observation of fact. Of course, that's not to say it can't go the other way....
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  #22  
Old 09-20-2002, 01:42 PM
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Isn't it just simpler to use the drain plug on this car? Never in my life have I heard of using a topsider for automotive application until I bought my Benz!
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  #23  
Old 09-20-2002, 04:53 PM
LarryBible
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Kestas,

I think part of the reason that you never heard of this with other brands is because the MB dealers began using a very nice oil suction system in the dealerships. This was done for shop efficiency, not because it does a better job.

Taking this to the next step, there are those that think that if the dealer does it this way, it must do a better job.

Thus, the topsider entered the picture.

I, as you, never, ever heard of using such a device at home before finding mercedesshop and sharing much dialog with all these great MB owners.

Have a great day,
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  #24  
Old 09-20-2002, 11:18 PM
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Sorry to disagree with several icons of MercedesShop.

The "professional" oil extractors do a better job on most modern MB engines that pulling the plug. Using the 112 engine as the best example, on that particular engine, when using the extraction equipment, with the adapter that plugs into just the top of the engine dipstick tube, you can extract the oil, pull the drain plug after that, and not a single drop comes out. To me, that is better, especially in a shop environment, than simply pulling the plug itself.
I say "professional", ie RAASM or Tecalemite (sic?), because I have no idea if a Topsider (DIY grade) evacuator will give these results, or if using a suction probe (to the bottom of the pan) is as efficient as what MB has set up for us.
In an operational sense, I can see the argument of "why not just pull the plug?". Believe me, I was very skeptical too until I started using the extractor and then pulling the plug to see the results. Excellent results and YES much faster.
There are 2 examples I can think of where the extractor is much better to use due to the chassis design. First is the ML class, where the flow of oil is disrupted by chassis components and MB specifically forbids us from pulling the drain plug, as the oil can and will degrade rubber mounting components. Another is the 104 engine in a 210 chassis (1996&97), where the oil flow will run into the front bumper apron, MB didn't have anything to say about that problem though.

Gilly

"Change oil hot, change oil when FSS tells you to"
(and use a good oil sucker)
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  #25  
Old 09-21-2002, 10:25 AM
LarryBible
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Okay, let's say that on the 112 engine, this is the case. It could very well be that because of obstructions between the suction location and the drain plug location, you get more with the PROFESSIONAL, expensive system found in the dealers.

I do have a question about sucking and then pulling the drain plug. How long did you have the plug out after sucking? It would take a while for that small quantity of oil that is left to move around and find its way out.

If this is the case on the older cars I would be shocked.

Secondly, you said this, but some may not notice that the topsider will not necessarily do this.

Yes, I am still a skeptic. My brother in law who is my tech at the dealership has offered to drain my oil with the plug if I wish. I don't have any problem with them using their contraption because I will do an oil and filter change between theirs anyway.

I have no problem with the dealers doing things to increase shop efficiency, or even with the factory designing cars with this in mind. In fact I doubt that many other car companies give a hoot whether their dealers can have an efficient shop.

My contention is that the pan should be laid out so that I can pull the plug and drain ALL the oil out. For the person that maintains their own car after the warranty period, I want to be able to remove ALL the oil to prevent more frequent oil changes.

I am a stickler about my oil drains because I want MAXIMUM engine life and when I do take that engine apart I want it to be COMPLETELY SLUDGE FREE.

I have already pointed a finger at myself and said in effect "LARRY IS ANALLY RETENTIVE REGARDING OIL CHANGES." I can understand shop efficiency, I can't understand not putting a pan underneath and draining the oil into the pan instead of spending money on a contraption that some say cannot be used to remove the oil while it is hot and has contaminants thoroughly mixed.

So, as I've said before, call me what you want (and some here have already started with that) and do what YOU want to do. I will continue to put a pan under a hot engine, pull the plug and let it drain overnight.

Yes, I will have some gunk under my fingernails, but the inside of my engine will remain clean.

One last thing. There is one good thing about the topsiders. It has people changing their oil that might not otherwise do so. That's definitely a good thing. It allows those who detest crud under their fingernails to change their oil, with some degree of success, without relying on someone else to do so.

Have a great day,
Change oil hot and change oil often,
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  #26  
Old 09-21-2002, 12:17 PM
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Location: Old Lyme, Connecticut
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I got converted when my 190E 2.3-16 drain plug got stuck a number of times and had to be destructively removed. I bought a Topsider from Griot's Garage and have never looked back. I am not too dull about these things, so I was very careful not to leave a part like a washer out or to tighten the bolt too much. It is the only car I have had this problem on and it is the only one I have seen with a plug that has about an inch and half to two inches of thread. It also has a belly pan, but leaves some access to the drain plug.

The 1991 350SD was another story. It had a belly pan that had a number of fasteners on it, but they were not the kind that were intended to be removed every month or two for an oil change. While my preference was to pull the drain plug, I gave up the second time around and used the Topsider.

I agree with Larry in that one big benefit is you are likely to keep a frequent oil change schedule using a Topsider. With more frequent oil changes, it is more likely that any small quantity of left over, undrained oil will be benign. So, it turns out to be a matter of choice. Good luck, Jim
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1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
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  #27  
Old 09-21-2002, 05:21 PM
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Hot vs cold oil changes

unless the engine oil is REALLY sludged up (no one on this board runs oil that long I hope), the only difference in draining 'hot' vs 'cold' is the time it takes to empty the pan. Modern oils keep ALL the crud in suspension. Your engine would not live more than a few minutes during a cold start otherwise.

by 'cold' , I mean above 40F.

The small amount of oil left in the pan is of no significance. Far more important is using good fuel, good filters, and good oil changed 3-4K miles in normal stop and go, more often in very dusty or cold or short trip service.
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  #28  
Old 09-21-2002, 10:30 PM
LarryBible
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Although modern oils do indeed suspend contaminants much better than the oil of the sixties, the contaminants are still much better suspended and drained out from a thoroughly warmed up engine.

It's, of course, up to whoever is paying for the car and the oil changes and what they are looking for. Many people only drive the same car a few years and are not looking for absolute maximum engine life. In that case 3K to 4K oil changes for city driving will certainly suffice. If you are looking for absolute maximum engine life, however, city driving requires that the oil be changed on time, probably about every 4 months unless you are putting 3,000 miles on in that time, in which case, change it every 3,000 miles.

I'm not a fan of Fram oil filters, but a few years ago they had a very appropriate marketing campaign, "pay me now or pay me later."

Have a great day,
Change oil hot and change oil often,
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  #29  
Old 09-23-2002, 04:35 PM
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Larry Bible wrote:



My contention is that the pan should be laid out so that I can pull the plug and drain ALL the oil out. For the person that maintains their own car after the warranty period, I want to be able to remove ALL the oil to prevent more frequent oil changes.

I am a stickler about my oil drains because I want MAXIMUM engine life and when I do take that engine apart I want it to be COMPLETELY SLUDGE FREE.



I agree 100% with the above.

I usually "waste" 1/4- 1/3 quart of clean oil to flush out the bottom of the pan. It tends to kick up any particulates and trapped old oil and push it out. I guess this too could fail to depending on the config. of the pan, but I always seem to see some junk push out using this method.

Brian
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  #30  
Old 09-24-2002, 10:48 AM
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Pressure Washer

I use a 1500 psi pressure washer. Stick the end of the washer nozzle in the oil fill tube and blast away till clear water runs out the drain. To get all the old oil out I do this while the engine is running. Now you may ask, "How do you get all the moisture out?" Well, thats the easy part. I just take off the filler cap and leave the drain plug off and run the engine till it all dries up. If my oil is really dirty, I throw in a cup of Tide detergent (with bleach).
The pressure washer is also good for cleaning out brake and fuel lines, and really works getting dirt and dust out of hard to reach areas around the dash.
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