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  #16  
Old 12-04-2002, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LarryBible
If it makes you feel better, I'm sure that there are Lexus owners out there who have experienced the same kind of stuff.

Good luck,
Oh there sure are Larry. A father of one of my co-workers had (past tense) a '91 LS400. It was fairly reliable until it got over 100,000 miles, and then everything went wrong. He sunk in thousands of dollars in the car and finally had enough. He traded it in on a new 2000 S500 and has been happy ever since.
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  #17  
Old 12-09-2002, 04:42 AM
UK 2.3-16v
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Hmmm, JD Power...

One of the TV car programs over here ran a Lexus LS420 for 120,000 miles. Apart from routine servicing and consumables it cost exactly 19pence. It blew a fuse. That was it!!!

But....

Compare the build on Japanese cars to Germans... I run a Nissan 200sx Turbo as a company car. From new, I've trashed it senseless - redlined it within the first 100miles of its life!!

60,000miles and twelve months later, It hasn't broken a thing - but its getting very tatty and mechanically noisy...

Strange thing is - the manufacturer warranty runs out at 60K miles - I get the impression its all about to go bang!

The Nissan is to be replaced with a CLK200 Kompressor (yay!!!!)

Have to say the build on the CLK compared with my 16 yr old 190e looks distinctly shabby!

The old adage - they don't make em like they used to - I think now sadly applies to Mercedes-Benz.

IMHO, Mercedes have for too long, been trading on the old 'Weltmeister' reputation they had built up... The accountants have got involved and its all gone to pot. BMW are the same - living on the reputation of reliability founded on the E21, and E30 cars... From E36 onwards they've been distinctly iffy in the quality and reliability stakes.
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  #18  
Old 12-09-2002, 08:48 AM
LarryBible
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Well, I've been hearing the "they don't build an MB like they used to for 25 years and it has yet to come true IMHO.

When I got my first 123 car in 1978, several people told me how that car was nowhere near as good as my old 114 230. They told me that again when I got my new 210 car and still again when I got my C240.

They've all been great cars. I'm really puzzled why people say such things. Technology marches forward, it only stands to reason that the cars created from this technology will also advance.

My $0.02,
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  #19  
Old 12-09-2002, 11:03 AM
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today's newspaper

mercedes 99 e320. star mark by local dealer. in shop 11 times since 4/02. $30,500. call 757/566-1111.
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  #20  
Old 12-09-2002, 11:34 AM
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so does that mean the JD Power article is accurate in regard to vehicles less that 5 years old then?

Warren
1992 300SD 152K
Columbus Ohio
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Anyone seen the new JD power article?-1992-300sd.jpg  
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  #21  
Old 12-09-2002, 06:06 PM
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Go to your local Lexus dealer and look around. Count the number that you see with the heads off due to oil sludging....and that is with proper maintenance.

They all have their problems. The one thing I do see with MB is that they are on the cutting edge and like to introduce new technology before it has been completely sorted out.

I still dont understand why people would want to spend as much money as they do on a Lexus when you look all over it and it says Toyota. Sure, Toyotas are great cars, but when you buy a Benz , you have something special. If it costs a lot to keep up....so be it. As for me, I will pay for the comfort and safety of a car that is of the caliber of a Benz.

To each his own.

Brian
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  #22  
Old 12-10-2002, 09:57 AM
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I agree with the toyota look of the car(but do you like the interiors of the brand new MB's)...
but you discount the reliability of the cars...obviously especially in the first 5 years of ownership...I think that is crucial for return "new car " buyers, and for resale value of the cars because I think it has a lot to do with the reputation of the brand

as for having the heads off...I would be willing to bet the MB dealers have seen a few more heads off..perhaps more than Lexus

I the the Lexus "phenomenon" has shaken up the whole luxury car mentality in regard to reliability and value for the dollar

My tech at my MB dealer has told me many horror stories of the first 3 years( 92-94) of the 140's...MB flying techs in to trouble shoot cars, instrument cluster electrical shorts,shimmying steering wheels,customers returning to have items fixed 3-4 times and very angry customers who often had paid in excess of 70K for their cars and thought they were perhaps buying the best car in the world..only to have it spend months out of the year at the dealer service bay...many say the car was rushed to market ...??

I was speaking with the sales manager of the BMW dealer in Cincinnatti(over thanksgiving dinner) and he told me the same thing about the new BMW 745I...tons of teething problems with the cars they have sold so far..many customers have had cars in 4-5 times for multiple electrical gremlins...BMW has sent out company techs to trouble shoot customers cars...I was told BMW has bought back a few cars already...again...someone paying that much probably thought they were getting the best car in the world..wonder if they still think that way...
was the car ready for market?


but ..I have never heard of Lexus having these types of issues...sure I am sure some of the cars have issues...but none of the mass shop time I have seen the other premium models endure

and you gotta think why are many people afraid of the 140 or the prior 7 series(95-01) but not afraid of owning the LS400(430) without a warranty...it is heresay or perhaps the reputation the cars have....look at the resale value of the 750IL or the S600 V-12's...its astounding how quick the values fall...and some extended warranty companies won't even touch those two models..I even heard there were probelms getting an extended warranty on a 140 5-6 years ago
..you gotta think thats due to some statistic information that was compiled by the actuarial part of these insurance companies in regard to repair cost and frequency

Warren
1992 300SD 152K
Columbus Ohio
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Anyone seen the new JD power article?-1992-300sd.jpg  
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  #23  
Old 12-10-2002, 10:18 AM
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Why do you own a lowly 140 and not a wonderful Lexus if you have this big of a problem with MB?

Brian
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  #24  
Old 12-10-2002, 10:19 AM
LarryBible
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You MUST remember that the dealer service departments see the ones that give trouble. They do NOT see the zillions of them that just keep rolling down the road.

Aluminum head engines are prone to head gasket and head problems. No manufacturer is immune to this.

When you read about achilles heel type problems here or anywhere else, it can easily sound like every single car built of a particular model experience this particular problem. In reality if 12 or 15 percent of the cars of that model experience that problem, it would be an EXTREMELY high percentage. The dealer people see all of those and it can easily sound like you are destined to experience that very problem on your car. In reality, the odds are heavily in your favor that you will not.

Listening to one brand dealer say that they see very few problems with their Double X 5000 model versus another brand dealer saying they see lots of problems with the Excelsior 500 is not very scientific data gathering.

The supposedly "independent" research firms such as J.D. Powers is not very meaningful either. They are influenced by the car manufacturers and skew data to a point that it is meaningless.

Have a great day,
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  #25  
Old 12-10-2002, 10:55 AM
it leaks, its german
 
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The 140 was a technoligical marvel when introduced, find a lexus of the same vintage with the convience features and technology of the 140. Yep, it had problems but, what do you expect from loads of new tech in one car?

I've been a toyota tech, replaced a bunch of v6 short blocks, headgaskets, transmissions and so on. I've been a Benz tech, did a lot of electrical work, some engine work, headgaskets on 103's & 104's, blocks fitted with pistons on 112's, some tranny work, freewheels, valvebodys etc...

There also are signifcant differences in suspension, brake and SRS technology, most Lexus suspensions for example are nothing more than Macpherson strut technology that has been around since the days of air cooled VW's. Whereas Benz's tends to push this tecnolgy further in their unequal lenght control arm suspensions that are more stabile(spl?) and provide better road manners. (ever looped a front drive car, yehhaaaaaa, all you can do is wait for the ride to end)

3 major differences in Jap versus German engineering.

1) the japs have no clue of body tuning and rigidity, their bodys tend to move down the harmonic range as they age and get progessivly more noisey.

2) the germans have no clue of how to real world r&d technology prior to turning it loose on the general public. However, they do a wonderful job of body tuning.

3) no manufactors, german, jap, american, european or otherwise avioded the plague of OBD2 check engine lights very well. However, in my experience, the germans made it easier to repair.

Now, here is a challenge for you, find me a ES300 with over 200k miles on it, compare it to my Moms 300te with 200k on it, notice several things, interior quality, smoothness, noise level, trim fit and finish and most of all overall feling of quality. (the TE has had a few relays, top end overhaul and tranny rebuild otherwise no issues)

Also compare service costs, most lexus/toyota motors require timing belt replacement every 60k, all benz mills are chains, some require replacement more often than others, the average would be about 120k. This was 15 years ago but, a v6 camry 60k was 600.00, where as the 300e's was 300.00. (the v6 camry is the platform for the es300, same driveline and body pan)

1 other thing to think about, front drive cars are cheaper to build in a assemly line enviroment which means most lexus cars are cheaper to build therefore should cost significantly less than the rear drive benz cars. However, this savings is not reflected in the price of the cars, not to mention the features and technology just isn't there.

Personally, I'd rather own the benz over the lexus (nope, cant afford either right now) due to the MAJOR differences in ride quality, road manners, forgivness and safety.

I heard something once that I liked, there is a ass for every seat, buy what you want.



Joe
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  #26  
Old 12-10-2002, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Why do you own a lowly 140 and not a wonderful Lexus if you have this big of a problem with MB?
well I will tell you...if I had had any idea I was going to have the amount of problems I have had(the over 20K of repairs is posted elsewhere in this forum) I would have considered otherwise
my situation(fortunately) was covered(95% or so) with warranty...but you still can't make up for the time and trouble...but according to the zone rep,service dept manager and the tech I now have a "like new" car with all the advancements and updated parts....we'll see I guess

but since I have no car payment and the car has had over 20K of MB dealer repairs(much of it still under warranty) I will keep it until it doesn't make economic sense anymore(where out of pocket repair costs is near value of the car to repair)..as of now I think the car is worth about 15-16K..when that value gets to a certain figure I will evaluate whether or not it makes sense to keep

and the former two MB's I owned were great cars..go figure maybe I thought the tradition continued...but both the MB zone rep and the tech at the dealer that has done the myriad of work on my car have told me they have seen all these problems before..and my case although at a higher incidence of repair is not completely out of the ordinary with this model


Quote:
You MUST remember that the dealer service departments
see the ones that give trouble. They do NOT see the zillions of them that just keep rolling down the road
I agree...but I am only comparing the frequency of the problem to the number of cars sold...that way you can create an accurate percentage....for example if you saw five times as many 140's as 210's for evap core fixes(and you knew that MB sold 4-5 times 210's as 140's)then you would figure that the occurance of the problem is rather high considering the number of cases they have seen versus the total number of cars sold

if someone said we have replaced more alternators in Honda accords than S500s...that could be an accurate statement
...but you have to consider the size of the total pool of cars that could be open for repairs...considering they probably sell more than 100 times the amount of Accords as S500's


that statement could be almost meaningless in regard to establishing a repair history of an automobile

lets face it..the premium models(those over 60-70K) are not high volume cars...so a tendancy of even an individual dealer on repairs of a certain high end models could easilly represent a true sampling of the auto


Warren
1992 300SD 152K
Columbus Ohio
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Anyone seen the new JD power article?-1992-300sd.jpg  
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  #27  
Old 12-10-2002, 11:20 AM
LarryBible
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joe p,

I just want to thank you for the very informative and insightful post.

Have a great day,
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  #28  
Old 12-10-2002, 05:08 PM
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if the last year of a production run for a car is the nicest/best what about the first year of the production run?
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  #29  
Old 12-10-2002, 05:30 PM
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I think you might want to do a search on that subject in the forum and see what popular opinion says...lol

I will try to stay out of that one

Warren
1992 300SD 152K
Columbus Ohio
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Anyone seen the new JD power article?-1992-300sd.jpg  
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  #30  
Old 12-10-2002, 06:05 PM
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im lucky enough to own the first year of the 190e US production run
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